Wouldn’t be like that if we didn’t have unrealistic expectations of what software development is. We expect perfect ever increasingly better graphics and zero bugs. That’s just not realistic, especially as we ask for better graphics, dev time takes longer, and gets more expensive, and requires more moving parts.
And then we just jump online and complain about how the graphics aren’t perfect.
Really?
Graphics are the big issue?
Then why was redfall’s basic gameplay loop worse than Skyrim’s (a game that hasn’t received a mayor update in 10-15 years)?
Like, I understand expectations can be batshit crazy, and often quite bad. You’ve got a point there. Graphics are only a minor part of what makes a good game, a good game though.
P.s.
People nowadays tend to say that a game is incredibly buggy, or boring. Haven’t heard complaints about looks in a long, long time. Only heard complaints that the game is shite, or just simply doesn’t even work.
Yes, people expect top notch graphics and a great story to go with it. There’s only so much bandwidth in a team. We’re lucky we get a coherent story at all most of the time considering how much we expect from games these days.
That still doesn’t excuse shitty gameplay, or like I said, an awfull basic gameplay loop.
Gameplay loops don’t have to be difficult.
Take minecraft as an example.
The basic gameplay loop there is simple.
Mine, craft, repeat.
That, in its most basic form, is it.
But if you look at redfall as an example, it’s using a tried and true method.
Shoot, loot, upgrade, repeat.
They don’t do anything else with it though.
Redfall (to my knowledge) adds nothing.
And it doesn’t even have top-notch graphics. iirc Horizon: Zero Dawn looked prettier. So does Minecraft, but Minecraft is a complicated comparison that I won’t go into here.
I work in software, so I get it. However I don’t think it’s graphics. There’s a lot of bugs to do with other things. I probably don’t hang out in the same game forums as you but a lot of complaints about unfinished games are about bugs or just incompleteness. Also, organisational challenges as well. I enjoyed FF15 but that game felt disjointed and when we look into why, it’s obvious why it was a nightmare.
I think you have a good point that games can have unrealistic expectations now and there’s only so much time and money.
I think the thing is that putting out an incomplete game at full price with microtransactions now feels like a slap in the face from the consumer point of view.
Microtransactions are a scourge on gaming. But, I can see why they’re drawn to it. Games are a huge financial investment upfront, and a big risk on release with no guaranteed return.
That said, I do think expecting better and better graphics is a big part of why games end up being a mess, but certainly not the only reason. I also work in software, and work on games in my spare time, so while I’m not an expert or have any inside information from the gaming industry, I do know that graphics suck up a huge amount of time, and resources on a project.
You’re an exception unfortunately. I know gameplay loop is really important. But the sad reality is a lot of people won’t even pick up a game if it doesn’t have modern graphics.
It’s not unreasonable to expect a game to be, to the publisher’s knowledge, bug free. In fact, it’s not just reasonable, as a programmer, it’s fucking baseline.
Most game devs are a fucking embarrassment, and they deserve to be dragged.
I think it’s less game devs but the way their studios are made to operate. I feel like the majority of game devs would love to finish and polish their projects but tight deadlines and crunch culture prohibit them from. It.
Yep, in big studios the big guys making the decisions really couldn’t care less what product is actually being made. They expect X return on investment by Y date, and you better be shipping your game then because ressources are already being reallocated to that bew project that was already in pre-prod as you were finishing the previous one.
Game devs are also artists in their own way. It sucks for them when a game, sometime one that had lots of potential, gets released in an unfinished state. Your reputation takes a hit, people blame the QA and loot devs, but really the big guys are almost always to blame. More mid-term money that way, less bonus to pay, players still buy the unfinished games, and etc.
I mean couple this with quiet quitting and how people are coming around to working according to the wage they get, as opposed to striving to work towards a wage they want which comes after bonuses, pay raises, etc. Wonder if this trend in gaming reflects a larger issue of how developers are realizing that capitalism doesn’t compute with art-making
If you’re a developer then you know bugs in software are inevitable. You’re either not a developer or so full of yourself, you think you’ve never made a mistake in your life. Either way, you don’t know ow what you’re talking about.
I think they meant that known bugs should be fixed brforing shipping a release. And as others commented, this is not usually in the devs hands and unfortunately, they usually take the public blame.
Wouldn’t be like that if we didn’t have unrealistic expectations of what software development is. We expect perfect ever increasingly better graphics and zero bugs. That’s just not realistic, especially as we ask for better graphics, dev time takes longer, and gets more expensive, and requires more moving parts.
And then we just jump online and complain about how the graphics aren’t perfect.
Really? Graphics are the big issue? Then why was redfall’s basic gameplay loop worse than Skyrim’s (a game that hasn’t received a mayor update in 10-15 years)?
Like, I understand expectations can be batshit crazy, and often quite bad. You’ve got a point there. Graphics are only a minor part of what makes a good game, a good game though.
P.s. People nowadays tend to say that a game is incredibly buggy, or boring. Haven’t heard complaints about looks in a long, long time. Only heard complaints that the game is shite, or just simply doesn’t even work.
Yes, people expect top notch graphics and a great story to go with it. There’s only so much bandwidth in a team. We’re lucky we get a coherent story at all most of the time considering how much we expect from games these days.
That still doesn’t excuse shitty gameplay, or like I said, an awfull basic gameplay loop. Gameplay loops don’t have to be difficult. Take minecraft as an example. The basic gameplay loop there is simple. Mine, craft, repeat. That, in its most basic form, is it. But if you look at redfall as an example, it’s using a tried and true method. Shoot, loot, upgrade, repeat. They don’t do anything else with it though.
Minecraft adds enchantments, building, cool alternate equipment.
Redfall (to my knowledge) adds nothing. And it doesn’t even have top-notch graphics. iirc Horizon: Zero Dawn looked prettier. So does Minecraft, but Minecraft is a complicated comparison that I won’t go into here.
I work in software, so I get it. However I don’t think it’s graphics. There’s a lot of bugs to do with other things. I probably don’t hang out in the same game forums as you but a lot of complaints about unfinished games are about bugs or just incompleteness. Also, organisational challenges as well. I enjoyed FF15 but that game felt disjointed and when we look into why, it’s obvious why it was a nightmare.
I think you have a good point that games can have unrealistic expectations now and there’s only so much time and money.
I think the thing is that putting out an incomplete game at full price with microtransactions now feels like a slap in the face from the consumer point of view.
Microtransactions are a scourge on gaming. But, I can see why they’re drawn to it. Games are a huge financial investment upfront, and a big risk on release with no guaranteed return.
That said, I do think expecting better and better graphics is a big part of why games end up being a mess, but certainly not the only reason. I also work in software, and work on games in my spare time, so while I’m not an expert or have any inside information from the gaming industry, I do know that graphics suck up a huge amount of time, and resources on a project.
Oh yeah, they definitely do. Most people think it don’t, but there’s a lot of work going into it.
I took a hiatus from gaming and when I bought a PS5, I was like, wow these PS5 graphics are killer! Then I realized I was playing PS4 God of War …
I think it’s a huge burden for AAA, which is why it’s a huge relief for those indie games going with sprites.
I don’t really care about graphics.
If some modern game dev decided to tackle a modern idea of Ocarina of Time with dated graphics and pulled it off, I’d be there with my wallet open.
Gameplay.
Gameplay.
Gameplay. (Thanks, Ballmer for the memes)
You’re an exception unfortunately. I know gameplay loop is really important. But the sad reality is a lot of people won’t even pick up a game if it doesn’t have modern graphics.
When those people graduate high school they’ll eventually figure out that fun games are more important than shiny coats of paint.
Stylized is just as well.
Some people look at a game like Team Fortress 2 and see age. I see style and substance.
I love a good stylized game. I think those usually hold up the best as they age.
Because studios hype up for specific release date and then rush to finish rather than delay
That’s because of our unrealistic expectations. Every new game IP is a risk for a studio, and as I said, our expectations are sky high.
It’s not unreasonable to expect a game to be, to the publisher’s knowledge, bug free. In fact, it’s not just reasonable, as a programmer, it’s fucking baseline.
Most game devs are a fucking embarrassment, and they deserve to be dragged.
I think it’s less game devs but the way their studios are made to operate. I feel like the majority of game devs would love to finish and polish their projects but tight deadlines and crunch culture prohibit them from. It.
Yep, in big studios the big guys making the decisions really couldn’t care less what product is actually being made. They expect X return on investment by Y date, and you better be shipping your game then because ressources are already being reallocated to that bew project that was already in pre-prod as you were finishing the previous one.
Game devs are also artists in their own way. It sucks for them when a game, sometime one that had lots of potential, gets released in an unfinished state. Your reputation takes a hit, people blame the QA and loot devs, but really the big guys are almost always to blame. More mid-term money that way, less bonus to pay, players still buy the unfinished games, and etc.
I mean couple this with quiet quitting and how people are coming around to working according to the wage they get, as opposed to striving to work towards a wage they want which comes after bonuses, pay raises, etc. Wonder if this trend in gaming reflects a larger issue of how developers are realizing that capitalism doesn’t compute with art-making
This seems relevant
If you’re a developer then you know bugs in software are inevitable. You’re either not a developer or so full of yourself, you think you’ve never made a mistake in your life. Either way, you don’t know ow what you’re talking about.
I think they meant that known bugs should be fixed brforing shipping a release. And as others commented, this is not usually in the devs hands and unfortunately, they usually take the public blame.