WARSAW, Poland — Eastern European countries are raising alarm over Ukraine potentially being pushed into peace talks with Russia, amid growing partisanship in Washington, hesitation and delays in w…
Then why oh why aren’t you applying your reasoning to Russia? They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
If it’s all just pointless bloodshed over lines on a map, why isn’t Russia staying home? All they have to do to stop the deaths is go back.
They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
Why do you think Russia invaded, exactly ? they started the whole conflict after decades of making NATO encroachment along their borders a clear red line and being very clear what would happen if it was crossed
The US still kept meddling in Ukraine (and other post-soviet states), with Russia making every effort short of war to try and stop that - like offering loans just as large as the IMF loans for example, except without asking for the batshit insane austerity measures the latter did
Then the CIA backed a far-right coup there in 2014, and much of the following years were spent with NATO financing and training nazi soldiers there in preparation of trying to take back Crimea, while breaking the Minsk agreements in the meantime (I’ll pass on the various atrocities and huge reframing of nazi criminals as national heroes in Ukraine there at the same period, since it’s barely related, but it is worth a mention too)
Now both Ukrainian and Russian people are dying. A peace deal would stop that.
Lolyou think this is “indiscriminate”? Fuck, you should’ve zeen Fallujah or Vietnam or Korea. Ukraine has so much infrastructure and housing left in perfectly usable conditions. One of my major issues at the beginning was that I expected Russia to be much more violent and have been very surprised at how little of the violence has been on non-combatants
From what you wrote, do you have a major issue with, in your view, how little violence Russia has inflicted on civilians? Glad that you’re disappointed.
My point stands. All that blabber does not justify the acts of Russia.
Lol fuck you
No I’m pleasantly surprised at how little violence against civilians has happened in Ukraine. They never for a moment did the all out war that the US has waged on so many countries. None of that justifies the acts of Russia, but it does mean that your view is so terribly skewed by your western propaganda that I can’t imagine you being right about anything else lol
But also, you can look into my comment history if you want, for some good explanations on my position on Putin and Russia in this war. I have principles and material analyses. You have vibes
No one is justifying the acts of Russia. They should not have invaded! But to act like there is no pretext to conflict and Ukraine is completely innocent is disingenuous. Peace is the better option.
Would you like to live in putin’s russia until you die? Because that is what happened to the people in the occupied regions, wheter they like it or not.
(And please don’t mention the referendum. Between killed, coerced, exiles and fraud it’s a pornographic notion to think you can have a referendum in those conditions.)
The Ukrainian choice here is not peace vs war, that’s russia’s choice.
Ukrainians’ choice here is whether to accept to live in putin’s russia by force or to resist his troops’ advances by force and a lot of people in your instance believe that it is up to Ukraine to solve the problem that russia created by accepting putin’s laws (which I guess nobody in your instance would accept, since you are anti-homophobia etc etc)
Russia can cry about their red line all they want, but it wasn’t in the treaty. The Revolutions of 1989 made it clear Eastern Europeans weren’t interested in Russian control, the Balkans were unstable, and the Chechen & Georgian wars stoked fear in the former Soviet states. All NATO had to do was open their doors, and again, nothing in the treaty forbade it.
Russia being the aggressor State that didn’t respect its prior engagements (Budapest memorandum), letting them keep the territory they unlawfully took from Ukraine is a ridiculous suggestion, would open the door to the same thing happening again at a later date and would require way more negotiations than just respecting the borders as agreed upon in the 90s.
Since you are talking about unhonored agreements, you should know that if Ukraine followed the minsk agreement, there would not be any war right now. And no, I am not suggesting anything. I am just pointing out how the previous argument was fucking stupid. But since you are asking for a suggestion, I suggest Ukraine and Russia meet for peace talks mediated by a neutral country, and let both countries talk about their grievances and find a compromise. This is a historically proven method of solving conflicts. And since Ukraine is such a sovereign country, they should decide for themselves what to do, instead of letting the UK arbitrarily revert actions on a whim.
So your argument against mine is that Ukraine didn’t respect an agreement that wouldn’t have been necessary if Russia had respected an agreement signed 20 years prior? Really?
Russian spokesman: Recognizing the Donbas republics would not be compatible with Minsk agreement.
Putin: I recognize the Donbas republics and the agreement no longer exists.
You: Ukraine is at fault.
The propaganda worked well with you I see 👍
Off to the block list with all the tankies you go!
What a convoluted mess you have written, and what about that habit of yours of putting things in other people’s mouths? But let me address the raised issues: Ukraine did sign the Minsk agreements, just like Russia signed the Budapest memorandum, which were not conflicting proposals. It doesn’t matter which one was signed first, but rather which one is broken first, and by which party. Russia only entered the territory of Ukraine officially in 2022, whereas the Minsk agreements have been proposed and revised since 2014 with no results, and it was confirmed that Ukraine never had intentions to fulfill any of its obligations and were using it as a cover to militarize the country further. You talk about propaganda, but it’s precisely propaganda that makes you so quick to dismiss all the undesirable information and shut down conversation that is not going your way. I’m afraid your “tankie” block list will continue to be expanded.
Then why oh why aren’t you applying your reasoning to Russia? They started the whole conflict out of a desire to expand their arbitrary lines in the sand to include ukrainian territory.
If it’s all just pointless bloodshed over lines on a map, why isn’t Russia staying home? All they have to do to stop the deaths is go back.
Why do you think Russia invaded, exactly ? they started the whole conflict after decades of making NATO encroachment along their borders a clear red line and being very clear what would happen if it was crossed
The US still kept meddling in Ukraine (and other post-soviet states), with Russia making every effort short of war to try and stop that - like offering loans just as large as the IMF loans for example, except without asking for the batshit insane austerity measures the latter did
Then the CIA backed a far-right coup there in 2014, and much of the following years were spent with NATO financing and training nazi soldiers there in preparation of trying to take back Crimea, while breaking the Minsk agreements in the meantime (I’ll pass on the various atrocities and huge reframing of nazi criminals as national heroes in Ukraine there at the same period, since it’s barely related, but it is worth a mention too)
Now both Ukrainian and Russian people are dying. A peace deal would stop that.
I wonder what part of this is supposed to justify Russia’s indiscriminate bombing of civilian populations
Lolyou think this is “indiscriminate”? Fuck, you should’ve zeen Fallujah or Vietnam or Korea. Ukraine has so much infrastructure and housing left in perfectly usable conditions. One of my major issues at the beginning was that I expected Russia to be much more violent and have been very surprised at how little of the violence has been on non-combatants
Russia has definitely not engaged in total war.
From what you wrote, do you have a major issue with, in your view, how little violence Russia has inflicted on civilians? Glad that you’re disappointed.
My point stands. All that blabber does not justify the acts of Russia.
Lol fuck you No I’m pleasantly surprised at how little violence against civilians has happened in Ukraine. They never for a moment did the all out war that the US has waged on so many countries. None of that justifies the acts of Russia, but it does mean that your view is so terribly skewed by your western propaganda that I can’t imagine you being right about anything else lol
But also, you can look into my comment history if you want, for some good explanations on my position on Putin and Russia in this war. I have principles and material analyses. You have vibes
https://hexbear.net/comment/3746587 An example of a very simple version of why I critically support russia
You support Russia because… of reddit?
LMAO 🤣
Don’t you steal enough from your tenants to be able to afford a reading tutor if you need one that badly?
Are they a landleech? I thought they were just a bootlicker and person of land apologist
What?
Honestly, that’s about as much sense as they ever make
No one is justifying the acts of Russia. They should not have invaded! But to act like there is no pretext to conflict and Ukraine is completely innocent is disingenuous. Peace is the better option.
All it takes for peace to happen is Russian soldiers turning around and going home.
Also plenty of your fellow hexbear users are justifying the acts of Russia in the comments up above (and down below).
I agree with you that peace is a better option, although I’m pessimistic about the outcome of such talks at this point.
Would you like to live in putin’s russia until you die? Because that is what happened to the people in the occupied regions, wheter they like it or not.
(And please don’t mention the referendum. Between killed, coerced, exiles and fraud it’s a pornographic notion to think you can have a referendum in those conditions.)
The Ukrainian choice here is not peace vs war, that’s russia’s choice.
Ukrainians’ choice here is whether to accept to live in putin’s russia by force or to resist his troops’ advances by force and a lot of people in your instance believe that it is up to Ukraine to solve the problem that russia created by accepting putin’s laws (which I guess nobody in your instance would accept, since you are anti-homophobia etc etc)
I wonder that too
Are you suggesting that Russian aggression is justified because they demanded something of a sovereign nation which was refused?
Russia can cry about their red line all they want, but it wasn’t in the treaty. The Revolutions of 1989 made it clear Eastern Europeans weren’t interested in Russian control, the Balkans were unstable, and the Chechen & Georgian wars stoked fear in the former Soviet states. All NATO had to do was open their doors, and again, nothing in the treaty forbade it.
“I’m not legally prohibited from doing this” is rarely a good argument
I’m not sure there are any good arguments in geopolitics.
1989 Revolutions? Wholesale dismemberment of the USSR more like. And treaty didn’t say it. The Russians sure as fuck did.
We’re talking about the fastest ways to stop bloodshed, not Russia. Do you think that ending the war is bad?
Well fastest way is for Russia to say “We’re done, here’s your territory back.”
Would be equally fast if ukraine said “We’re done, keep the territory”
Edit: objectively true statement downvoted for being inconvenient to the reader
Russia being the aggressor State that didn’t respect its prior engagements (Budapest memorandum), letting them keep the territory they unlawfully took from Ukraine is a ridiculous suggestion, would open the door to the same thing happening again at a later date and would require way more negotiations than just respecting the borders as agreed upon in the 90s.
Since you are talking about unhonored agreements, you should know that if Ukraine followed the minsk agreement, there would not be any war right now. And no, I am not suggesting anything. I am just pointing out how the previous argument was fucking stupid. But since you are asking for a suggestion, I suggest Ukraine and Russia meet for peace talks mediated by a neutral country, and let both countries talk about their grievances and find a compromise. This is a historically proven method of solving conflicts. And since Ukraine is such a sovereign country, they should decide for themselves what to do, instead of letting the UK arbitrarily revert actions on a whim.
So your argument against mine is that Ukraine didn’t respect an agreement that wouldn’t have been necessary if Russia had respected an agreement signed 20 years prior? Really?
Russian spokesman: Recognizing the Donbas republics would not be compatible with Minsk agreement.
Putin: I recognize the Donbas republics and the agreement no longer exists.
You: Ukraine is at fault.
The propaganda worked well with you I see 👍
Off to the block list with all the tankies you go!
What a convoluted mess you have written, and what about that habit of yours of putting things in other people’s mouths? But let me address the raised issues: Ukraine did sign the Minsk agreements, just like Russia signed the Budapest memorandum, which were not conflicting proposals. It doesn’t matter which one was signed first, but rather which one is broken first, and by which party. Russia only entered the territory of Ukraine officially in 2022, whereas the Minsk agreements have been proposed and revised since 2014 with no results, and it was confirmed that Ukraine never had intentions to fulfill any of its obligations and were using it as a cover to militarize the country further. You talk about propaganda, but it’s precisely propaganda that makes you so quick to dismiss all the undesirable information and shut down conversation that is not going your way. I’m afraid your “tankie” block list will continue to be expanded.
No, it wouldn’t. That would lead to more and worse violence as Russia continues it genocide.
Yeah, that’s definitely what’s going on here