“We believe the prerequisite for meaningful diplomacy and real peace is a stronger Ukraine, capable of deterring and defending against any future aggression,” Blinken said in a speech in Finland, which recently became NATO’s newest member and shares a long border with Russia.

  • Zagaroth@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    6
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    1 year ago

    Supporting Ukraine is the only U.S. military action since WW2 that I can truly support. Even our action in response to 9/11 was fucked up.

    • cavemeat@beehaw.org
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      Same, its one of the only decisions the US has made that is pretty solidly good.

      • Tretiak@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        Ah yes. Good old Joe Biden repositioning his troops from Afghanistan to Ukraine.

    • Ninmi@sopuli.xyz
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      This has been a major reality check for me personally. For years I shook my head at the gargantuan US military budget thinking it’s ridiculous. Fast forward to February 2022 and I realize it’s the US once again cleaning up when Europe shits the bed. Ashamed, thankful and thoroughly convinced we need to spend a whole lot more in defense as well.

      • JillyB@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        Idk about all that. The US has supported Ukraine and I support that. But Europe has stepped up to the plate too. While US refused to provide long range HIMARS, UK provided Storm Shadow. Poland has donated about all it has. Realistically, the US could drastically reduce it’s defense spending, provide all the support Ukraine could want, and still maintain the largest military force by a large margin.

        • Ninmi@sopuli.xyz
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Well that’s what I’m saying. European countries are giving all they’ve got to give while the US hardly breaks a sweat, yet the US provides a disproportionately large amount compared to the rest. Europe would be in a lot more trouble without the US, once again.

          And I agree the UK deserves a lot of credit for pushing the envelope with tanks and long range and being the security provider for Sweden and Finland during the application process.

          • JillyB@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            I think we mostly agree. I just disagree with your claim that the US should spend more on Defense.

            • Ninmi@sopuli.xyz
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              I didn’t say the US should spend more, but Europe. Speaking as a European. E: trying to see if editing helps this federate.

    • TheBelgian@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      As a belgian and therefore european, I disagree. US is making war by proxy here and WE are paying the price.

      I am not for war but I have nothing to justify an irreducible support to Ukraine and interference with Russia.

      NOPE

      • DarraignTheSane@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Then you are morally okay with Ukraine being wiped off the map and the murder of as many of its citizen as Putin’s army can manage.

        • Tretiak@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          Dude, do you honestly think Putin is trying to militarily annihilate Ukraine? Especially when he considers Russians and Ukrainians to share the same cultural lineage and history. He made numerous overtures to try and ‘avoid’ a conflict from breaking out. Why was the west so adamantly against laying the framework for a security arrangement that made sense for all the parties involved?

          • DarraignTheSane@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            6
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            He made numerous overtures to try and ‘avoid’ a conflict from breaking out.

            Putin: “If you allow this country to have protection from me invading it, I’m going to invade it.”
            U.S.: “Yeah… we’re going to consider allowing them protection from you.”
            Putin: “Oh no… somebody stop me from invading this other country…! Here I go, I’m gonna invaaaade…”
            U.S.: “Okay.”
            [Putin invades Ukraine, begins murdering Ukrainians]
            U.S., months later: “Alright that’s enough, we’re going to help these Ukranians to keep you from murdering them.”
            Putin and his sheep: “tHe U.S. iS wArMoNgErInG!!!1!!”

              • JasBC@beehaw.org
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                Non-binding treaties negotiated under duress that all fell apart the moment the ink was put to paper, through which Russia tried to control Ukrainian internal affairs?

      • Tretiak@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Agreed. This situation is far more complicated than the western mainstream media wants to convince people it is. This wasn’t a conflict that was born at the outset of war. There’s a reason why there’s ‘zero’ mention of things like the Minsk Accords or any considerations given to Eurasian security arrangements. Here’s an excellent primer on the background involved. I’m not at all trying to say what Russia did was justified, but they’ve got far more of a moral plateau to stand on than the US does.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      1 year ago

      Amazing that you understand that your country has consistently been on the wrong side of history since WW2, but also believe this this is the first time it’s not.

      • Zagaroth@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        What’s wrong with helping a country defend itself from invasion by imperial warmongers?

        And to be clear, yes, I am calling Russia imperial warmongers. They have been actively invading neighboring countries for decades to expand themselves. And what is an empire if not a nation built on the conquest of other countries?

        • Tretiak@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          Yeah, no. The people that say crap like this, and uncritically swallow down the propaganda, always fail to take geopolitics seriously. In the last century, Europe (and Germany in particular) nearly destroyed Russia. Twice. If you’re Putin, and you continue to see a military alliance year after year, encroaching further and further up to your borders, what the hell are you supposed to do? If the USSR expanded the Warsaw Pact right up to incorporate Mexico and Canada, what do you reasonably think our response would be? Just look at Russia’s military defense budget. If you think is a country preparing and readying itself for any dream of imperialistic aspirations, you are crazy.

          • JasBC@beehaw.org
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            In the last century, Europe (and Germany in particular) nearly destroyed Russia.

            Russia entered WW1 on the same spaghetti-treaty-basis as every other nation that entered the conflict of their “own” accord.

            The USSR entered WW2 as a German ally and tried to once again erase Poland and the Poles as the common German/Russian imperialist ambition required. And instead of preparing for the inevitable war that literally everyone but Stalin saw coming, the Soviets collectivly spent the mid-to-late 1930s partaking in the Great Terror, nearly destroying their own nation for the sake of satiating a madman’s ego and paranoia.

            If you’re Putin, and you continue to see a military alliance year after year, encroaching further and further up to your borders, what the hell are you supposed to do?

            …stop promoting chauvanism? Stop trying to revive the USSR against the will of those who willingly left? Stop invading your neighbours? There’s like a million different ways to remain as a anti-democratic leech-state in this world without needing to use military force.

            If the USSR expanded the Warsaw Pact right up to incorporate Mexico and Canada, what do you reasonably think our response would be?

            It’s nice you think the US can just arbitarily expand NATO without the consent of other members, that joining NATO isn’t a choice. Likewise, it’s nice you apparently don’t get it was the same for the Warsaw Pact - Mongolia wasn’t allowed in on it as European Communists opposed having to support potential conglict between the USSR and China.

            Just look at Russia’s military defense budget. If you think is a country preparing and readying itself for any dream of imperialistic aspirations, you are crazy.

            They’ve invaded two former members of the USSR, have active orders to invade a third if the oppurtunity arises, and have drawn up plans for invading a fourth-one. Sorry, but I’ll rather accept the apparent reality that Russis is a myopic yes-man state that is currently doing war and committing genocide against Ukrainians.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          1 year ago

          That is absolutely not what the west is doing. Ukraine is being used as a proxy to weaken Russia using the formula that RAND outlined here. All the west is accomplishing is prolonging the conflict and it will not change the outcome. Anybody who thinks this is being done for the benefit of Ukraine is absolutely delusional.

          Maybe people living in the west should focus on stopping their empire from conquering countries before getting on their high horse.

          • FlowVoid@midwest.social
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            Nah, I prefer to stop countries from annexing pieces of other countries.

            The US hasn’t annexed anything since 1959, and I was born too late to stop that. But Russia can’t help itself, and even gives youngsters a chance to oppose annexation.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              1 year ago

              Maybe you should figure out how to stop your own regime from invading countries before playing world police then. US is literally occupying part of Syria as we speak. Just how ignorant are you exactly?

          • MikeTheComrade@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            It’s really sad how duped American citizens are here. They truly believe that when changing their bio pics to a Ukraine Flag that they’re doing something. They believe their government has the best interest of Ukraine while what they’re actually supporting is their government using Ukrainian bodies to weaken an adversary under the guise of defense. No one learned anything after Iraq, it was mere MONTHS ago that liberals were giving BUSH praise! They don’t care about Abu Ghraib or what happened in Guantanamo Bay. A lot of people here are in for a rough awakening.

            • FlowVoid@midwest.social
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              The people of Ukraine have told the world what their best interest is: removing Russian soldiers from their land, by force if necessary.

              The US is only interested in Ukraine when their goals align. Everyone knows this, including most Americans and most Ukrainians.

              However, it turns out that US and Ukrainian goals do, in fact, align. The US isn’t “using” Ukraine any more than Ukraine is “using” the US. They are openly cooperating to achieve a common interest.

              • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                6
                ·
                1 year ago

                The Ukrainian people are being kidnapped off the street and sent to die by the regime US installed in Ukraine after overthrowing a democratically elected government. Most Ukrainians don’t want to have a war and have their lives destroyed. The only people who want this war are ghouls living in the west who aren’t personally affected by it.

                • FlowVoid@midwest.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Tankies can always be counted on to project the worst in themselves.

                  There are hundreds of thousands of Russians in Georgia and Kazakhstan who can explain which side is kidnapping young men off the street and sending them to die for a war they care nothing about. Meanwhile, opinion polls of Ukrainians consistently show that an overwhelming majority want to continue the war until Russians are defeated.

                  • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    7
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    We have plenty of video evidence of this happening in Ukraine, but whatever you say my little dronie. And yeah, opinion polls mean so much in a country that’s now effectively a military dictatorship.

            • JillyB@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              I’m confused. Do you think Russia taking Ukraine by force is what’s best for Ukraine? Do you think their people are volunteering to fight because they just don’t know what’s best for them? Even if Ukrainians wanted to maintain independence out of some misguided patriotism, isn’t it their right as a sovereign nation to decide that?

              From the US perspective, Ukraine wanted to join NATO, aligning themselves with us. Then Russia invaded. If the US didn’t support Ukraine, the world would know they can prevent a weaker country from joining NATO by invading. After Iraq and Afghanistan, there’s no desire to send US troops but we can provide weapons and intelligence.

              • MikeTheComrade@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                0
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Weapons, intelligence and Ukrainian bodies are an extremely cheap deal to weaken an adversary, don’t you think?

                When it comes to wanting oil though, US and Iraqi bodies aren’t so important. As long as you can dupe your own citizens into believing there’s WMD’s, it doesn’t matter.

                And of course Ukraine knows what’s best for them. That’s why they keep asking for a roadmap to NATO but the US is like “Nah” - https://www.ft.com/content/c37ed22d-e0e4-4b03-972e-c56af8a36d2e

                So of course they’re left to negotiate. Again, the US Government doesn’t care but their citizens think they do.

                The US is against peace if it doesn’t get more money to the military–industrial complex or if it doesn’t weaken an adversary, like in this case.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Americans are subject to the best propaganda machine that money can buy, and people running the regime are certainly getting their money’s worth.

              • Tretiak@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                0
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                “Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media.” - Noam Chomsky

      • FlowVoid@midwest.social
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Russia was also on the wrong side of history since WW2. When two losers face off, logically one or the other must break their losing streak.

        And as it turns out, the US gets the win. Congratulations.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          1 year ago

          It wasn’t, and if you think US is winning anything here then you’re completely delusional. Life is going to get really hard for you in the coming years.

          • FlowVoid@midwest.social
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            Just like your leader once promised “we will bury you”. That was in 1959. He was delusional then, you are delusional today.

            The coming years will be fine for the US, but not necessarily for Russia.