Messing up the Sequels was a team effort. JJ’s Setup was shit but Rian’s own writing wasn’t any better. Nothing in JJ’s Setup requires a Bullshit Holdo maneuver, or turning Luke into a character from an alternate Universe. Yes the bag of Mysteries Rian was handed was full of steaming shit but that doesn’t really matter because in the end he decided to add some shit of his own before handing it back to JJ. You claim I say Rian fucked up the Trilogie, he didn’t. He only fucked up 1/3 of it. TLJ however did in retrospect change my view on TFA because, as we agree, JJ’s Mystery boxes turned out to be shit. I don’t claim that Rian fucked that up, he simply tore off the bandaid with his own bad movie. The blame for TFA (and Rise of SkywalkerPalpatine) lays solely with JJ.
As I said in another comment chain: TLJ was bad, but the hate it gets is overblown.
That math doesn’t math. He was directly responsible for 2/3s of it, and the other third he plowed over.
Rian’s script was a genuinely excellent anarchist critique of space opera. Whether or not that belongs in a numbered Star Wars movie is debatable. But the real disconnect with the audience is the edit. The film we got is not excellent. The film we got is not exactly good. And yet - all popular criticism is this same irrelevant fluff.
Luke being a hermit was JJ’s fault. It was immutable, when Rian began. Rian’s explanation was fine. Jesus Christ, his description of the Force is incredible. People keep shitting on his opinion of the Jedi as if the Jedi way didn’t fail the Republic, fail his parents, and fail his mentors, all two of whom kept playing mind games even after death. Some girl shows up expecting How To Hero 101 and of course he says no.
I ask you - as opposed to what?
Sketch it out for me. What does Luke’s motivation look like, when a Force-sensitive rando shows up on his extremely private retreat, offering a tool he built from scratch and obviously abandoned? The man knows smugglers, bounty hunters, militants, and diplomats. He’s attuned to a psychic power that permeates all life and matter. Some glorified barkeep having his backup glowstick in her basement would not stop him from getting it, if he set aside a month and gave half a shit. Tell me what it would look like, if it looked like that Luke Skywalker was well-written, in your eyes.
Me, personally? I’m quite happy with him kicking Rey straight down the only-what-you-take-with-you hole. He doesn’t toy with her except to show her she doesn’t need training and shouldn’t want training. Yoda played some Mister Miyagi shit while he was looking for a level-up before 1v1-ing the scariest motherfucker in the universe. “Ben” was a dutch uncle his whole life and never mentioned he had space-wizard bona fides, nevermind that his dad was alive and well and the scariest motherfucker in the universe. Jedi hermit Luke points out: the fact this trilogy exists means that what Luke did did not work. Of course he tells her not to repeat his mistakes. His ambition did not solve the problem.
That math doesn’t math. He was directly responsible for 2/3s of it, and the other third he plowed over.
Read this again:
You claim I say Rian fucked up the Trilogie, he didn’t. He only fucked up 1/3 of it.
I’m saying Rian only fucked up 1/3, not JJ.
Rian’s explanation was fine.
I sorta disagree. Other possible explanations aside (I dunno, maybe Luke went to undertake a serious ritual and didn’t want to get interrupted unless absolutely necessary) this explanation demands a lot more elaboration. The concept is fine but it would need some more fleshing out (I would prefer a short movie) to pick up the audience. The gaps between Episode 6 Luke, Flashback Luke and Episode 8 Luke are too large to bridge with suspension of disbelief/imagination for some. The trajectory many thought Luke would take does not match what we are shown, which means the audience should be shown a bit more to adjust that trajectory. The audience needs to see Luke drift off first before this transgression, not just told it happened. We do not need to see Luke attack Kylo. We need to see him drift off into intolerance to narrow the gap between Episode 6 and the Flashback. As it stands we see Luke on a trajectory to heroism in Episode 6, then an angry old man in the Flashback and someone who recognized the error of their ways in Episode 8, the difference between Flashback Luke and Episode 8 Luke is fine but the difference between Episode 6 Luke and Flashback Luke is not. His character makes a complete U-Turn in between and we, as the audience, have not a single clue why. It does not match the character we know to such an extreme extent that is completely takes you out of the movie. There was just not enough time in that movie to fit such an Arc for someone who is a Side Character+.
Still no idea what you think was missing from the explanation of how he got there. Him being there was a given. It awkwardly ended the previous movie, with a bizarre helicopter circle shot. Sprinkled throughout two whole acts, we got a Rashomon overview of him doing what we expected and having that blow up in his face. Short of making the movie about him–
And we’re glossing over how Luke in Return Of The Jedi very nearly turned to the dark side. The Emperor was fuckin’ thrilled until he got chucked down that elevator shaft. Luke Skywalker was always a hold-my-beer archetype. Plan A for Darth Vader was murder. There was no Plan B. Even with Jabba and the Emperor, his idea of a diplomatic alternative was to surrender his way in, and then murder his way out.
Luke being grumpy is infinitely more explicable than having the empire ‘return, somehow.’ Especially for an audience that’s spent decades joking about the prequels, and wonders if the whole franchise would’ve gone better if Qui-Gon hadn’t yelled “duck.” Having the prescience to see Kylo ruin everything is the fuzzy precognition we’ve long since known about. Seriously considering murder as a solution is his go-to. He’s not Batman.
Messing up the Sequels was a team effort. JJ’s Setup was shit but Rian’s own writing wasn’t any better. Nothing in JJ’s Setup requires a Bullshit Holdo maneuver, or turning Luke into a character from an alternate Universe. Yes the bag of Mysteries Rian was handed was full of steaming shit but that doesn’t really matter because in the end he decided to add some shit of his own before handing it back to JJ. You claim I say Rian fucked up the Trilogie, he didn’t. He only fucked up 1/3 of it. TLJ however did in retrospect change my view on TFA because, as we agree, JJ’s Mystery boxes turned out to be shit. I don’t claim that Rian fucked that up, he simply tore off the bandaid with his own bad movie. The blame for TFA (and Rise of
SkywalkerPalpatine) lays solely with JJ.As I said in another comment chain: TLJ was bad, but the hate it gets is overblown.
That math doesn’t math. He was directly responsible for 2/3s of it, and the other third he plowed over.
Rian’s script was a genuinely excellent anarchist critique of space opera. Whether or not that belongs in a numbered Star Wars movie is debatable. But the real disconnect with the audience is the edit. The film we got is not excellent. The film we got is not exactly good. And yet - all popular criticism is this same irrelevant fluff.
Luke being a hermit was JJ’s fault. It was immutable, when Rian began. Rian’s explanation was fine. Jesus Christ, his description of the Force is incredible. People keep shitting on his opinion of the Jedi as if the Jedi way didn’t fail the Republic, fail his parents, and fail his mentors, all two of whom kept playing mind games even after death. Some girl shows up expecting How To Hero 101 and of course he says no.
I ask you - as opposed to what?
Sketch it out for me. What does Luke’s motivation look like, when a Force-sensitive rando shows up on his extremely private retreat, offering a tool he built from scratch and obviously abandoned? The man knows smugglers, bounty hunters, militants, and diplomats. He’s attuned to a psychic power that permeates all life and matter. Some glorified barkeep having his backup glowstick in her basement would not stop him from getting it, if he set aside a month and gave half a shit. Tell me what it would look like, if it looked like that Luke Skywalker was well-written, in your eyes.
Me, personally? I’m quite happy with him kicking Rey straight down the only-what-you-take-with-you hole. He doesn’t toy with her except to show her she doesn’t need training and shouldn’t want training. Yoda played some Mister Miyagi shit while he was looking for a level-up before 1v1-ing the scariest motherfucker in the universe. “Ben” was a dutch uncle his whole life and never mentioned he had space-wizard bona fides, nevermind that his dad was alive and well and the scariest motherfucker in the universe. Jedi hermit Luke points out: the fact this trilogy exists means that what Luke did did not work. Of course he tells her not to repeat his mistakes. His ambition did not solve the problem.
Read this again:
I’m saying Rian only fucked up 1/3, not JJ.
I sorta disagree. Other possible explanations aside (I dunno, maybe Luke went to undertake a serious ritual and didn’t want to get interrupted unless absolutely necessary) this explanation demands a lot more elaboration. The concept is fine but it would need some more fleshing out (I would prefer a short movie) to pick up the audience. The gaps between Episode 6 Luke, Flashback Luke and Episode 8 Luke are too large to bridge with suspension of disbelief/imagination for some. The trajectory many thought Luke would take does not match what we are shown, which means the audience should be shown a bit more to adjust that trajectory. The audience needs to see Luke drift off first before this transgression, not just told it happened. We do not need to see Luke attack Kylo. We need to see him drift off into intolerance to narrow the gap between Episode 6 and the Flashback. As it stands we see Luke on a trajectory to heroism in Episode 6, then an angry old man in the Flashback and someone who recognized the error of their ways in Episode 8, the difference between Flashback Luke and Episode 8 Luke is fine but the difference between Episode 6 Luke and Flashback Luke is not. His character makes a complete U-Turn in between and we, as the audience, have not a single clue why. It does not match the character we know to such an extreme extent that is completely takes you out of the movie. There was just not enough time in that movie to fit such an Arc for someone who is a Side Character+.
Whoops. Yeah fair enough on mathing that math.
Still no idea what you think was missing from the explanation of how he got there. Him being there was a given. It awkwardly ended the previous movie, with a bizarre helicopter circle shot. Sprinkled throughout two whole acts, we got a Rashomon overview of him doing what we expected and having that blow up in his face. Short of making the movie about him–
And we’re glossing over how Luke in Return Of The Jedi very nearly turned to the dark side. The Emperor was fuckin’ thrilled until he got chucked down that elevator shaft. Luke Skywalker was always a hold-my-beer archetype. Plan A for Darth Vader was murder. There was no Plan B. Even with Jabba and the Emperor, his idea of a diplomatic alternative was to surrender his way in, and then murder his way out.
Luke being grumpy is infinitely more explicable than having the empire ‘return, somehow.’ Especially for an audience that’s spent decades joking about the prequels, and wonders if the whole franchise would’ve gone better if Qui-Gon hadn’t yelled “duck.” Having the prescience to see Kylo ruin everything is the fuzzy precognition we’ve long since known about. Seriously considering murder as a solution is his go-to. He’s not Batman.