I don’t know how else to describe it, but all my male friends and family are very unemotional. Not in the sense that they don’t feel anything, but that they are a lot better at handling them and I feel like I’m not. I’ve tried meditation, therapy, healthy eating and a better sleep schedule but nothing works. I still anger and get upset at the smallest things and I feel like I’m less masculine than my friends. Im even known as the super emotional guy in the group and they often tease me about it, which makes things worse. My family constantly talk down to me as I don’t work out much and am very thin and short while my younger bros are jacked and tall. I don’t know what to do and really needed to get this off my chest. Thank you.
Emotional reactions to stimuli are healthy and natural. The key is developing an emotional awareness that allows to understand your emotional reactions. That’s the only healthy way to control them, the alternative being the kind of suppression/repression that’s been so toxic for men for the last century or more.
I recommend a feelings wheel if you are like me and having a hard time identifying and labeling feelings.
Better identifying and labelling specific feelings is important, for sure, but it’s only one step. When I say “understand your emotional reactions”, I mean building an awareness of the childhood and youthful traumas that can inform emotional reactions well into adulthood in ways you don’t realise — because you’ve been specifically conditioned not to think about it.
This isn’t necessarily possible to navigate alone, and definitely requires a conscious effort towards dismantling and examining the thought processes boys and young men are taught from a very young age: that feelings are for girls, and girls are yucky, so if you feel things you’re yucky.
Feelings are for everyone.
I agree with everything you said.
Not in the sense that they don’t feel anything, but that they are a lot better at handling them
I think this is an important distinction. You don’t want to become unfeeling, but you do want to become more in control of your feelings. That’s a sign of maturity (tho many adults don’t really manage to get there).
I’ve tried meditation, therapy, healthy eating and a better sleep schedule but nothing works.
This takes time. Stick with it for a few years and you will see improvement. It’s not easy to grow and change, so give yourself time, and don’t give up.
Life isn’t easy for most of us. Just keep at it. Build healthy habits and over time you will see improvement.
I also recommend reading Stoic philosophy. Not the pop-culture unfeeling stuff. But the stuff about knowing the difference between what’s in your control and what’s outside of your control.
I think this is an important distinction. You don’t want to become unfeeling, but you do want to become more in control of your feelings.
Ehhhhhhhhh… You want to be in control of your actions. Trying to control your feelings just tends to lead to thinks like repression.
My dad always told me that we cannot control our feelings but can control what we do with it. Its amazing advice
You also want to regulate your feelings. It’s not helpful to e.g. let your anxiety drive you into a frenzy, or your depression drive you to harm yourself. Emotional regulation (not suppression) is an important skill.
True, and fair. A big part of regulation, though, is actually feeling and acknowledging those emotions, and giving them permission and space to exist.
Observation vs containment.
Adding on,.what we’re talking about here is emotional regulation. This isn’t the same as controlling emotions, nor doing away with them. More like managing the volume so you can actually listen to them.
You could even take out the word emotion and simply talk about self-regulation. @PostalDude if that’s the case, it’s not just whether you’ve tried meditation or therapy. On top of sticking to them because it can take time, the type of therapy matters. DBT is a specific modality which offers a lot of tools for self-regulation. This doesn’t mean dispensing with other approaches; but it’s a good place to start. Person-centered therapies might be subsequently useful and perhaps EMDR if you suspect a trauma element (just some examples. Not prescriptive).
From there understanding the effects of culture is good and so is looking at (real) Stoicism. But the latter is almost a later stage step, in that you want to be in the right frame of mind to properly apprehend it.
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Epic response bro! Thanks. Its fun to think of it like that, like I’m living a more raw unfiltered life than most, I guess.
Dude, you know, killing an entire town because you couldn’t wait in a line to get your milk like everybody else is not entirely a healthy thing, nor any of your “health” pipes are.
Jokes aside, your original post gives me a feeling that the very idea of not suppressing your emotions all of the time for the sake of masculinity is not yours, really. You mentioned your friends and family, who do seem to exert the macho behavior in unhealthy ways.
Get in terms with yourself first and foremost, because you’re the person you spend most of your time with one way or another. Allow yourself to feel anything and carefully analyze when and why you feel, then try to understand whether you want to have that kind of reaction to things at all. Personally, I have always found honest writing helpful, because it makes you go through things in details, which makes it invaluable when dealing with emotions and reactions.
Also, being constantly talked down to or annoyed or belittled or simply experiencing any kind of stress is a very prominent contributing factor to feeling like you’re not right. In some cases, it may help to find another group of people to regularly communicate with, finding comfort in some different pattern of behavior, one that makes you feel good and like you belong. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to ditch other groups - just make sure you experience the opposite of what depresses you on a regular basis. I can’t find any examples, but the Internet is surely full of understanding and caring people that you can probably try and bond with to have a good time together, with your thoughts being really far away from anything that makes you feel like you’re “not masculine enough”.
Lastly, try your best to calmly persevere when it makes sense to. Suggesting a person to do some sports for the sake of their own benefit is one thing, which you absolutely can politely decline if you don’t care because you’re the one living with the consequences, but making a person feel uncomfortable because of the emotional range they experience is plainly moronic (again, unless the person really needs some help, but shaming is no help).
Life isn’t static. Who knows, maybe you’ll manage persuade everyone around you to be more mature and welcoming and understanding, or even notice yourself changing and becoming in more direct control of your emotions, ending up chuckling looking back at your today’s self - I know I did.
So, cheer up, Dude. You seem like you got this, and believe in you.
This is a great example of the negative effects on men from our current patriarchal system. Men are suppose to be these unfeeling machines who only have a single emotion anger. This anger is valuable since people can wield it for their own personal gain either politically or economically so they keep up these narratives. But all humans are complex with many different emotions and likely you are feeling some other emotions as anger since you don’t have good words to describe them. I have this same problem with labeling emotions so I have been trying to label emotions twice a day now. Set an alarm and look at feelings wheel to describe what you are feeling. It may seem dumb but its a skill that needs practice and if you are like me you never learned this as a kid.
Also try to consume some counterculture media to see other descriptions of masculinity or manhood. This could be feminist, queer, kink positive, high fantasy, scify, ttrpg etc. since they will allow show alternative values and cultural expectations. These will show that there are different ways to be a man and that our current system is just one possible example. Once you start seeing this you will notice many different positive male role models even in some more typical media. Queer Eye did a great episode at a fraternity who were feeling the same things as you.
This may seem like a lot of work but the payoffs within your own life will be worth it. Removing other peoples expectations of what you should be and living based on your own expectations is freeing. Any future partners will be appreciate, as well as your friends even if they don’t know it yet. You will be happier since you can focus on what makes you happy not what others want think will make you happy.
We don’t live in a patriarchal system.
To deny that a patriarchal system exists is naive. A one sentence response to a 3 paragraph comment is woefully weak and inadequate and does nothing but make it seem like you’re sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “No! No! I’m not listening!”
I don’t have a problem with the rest of the comment, but the feminist terminology is grating.
‘Patriarchy’ is commonly defined as “a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it” (as per r/AskFeminists.) This is simply not the kind of society we live in. In Western countries at least (and most others as well) women are represented at all levels of government, and there are no systemic barriers to participation.
Ah ok we’re just getting hung up on semantics, not a huge deal. There are lots of theories and definitions, I didn’t subscribe to /r/Feminism on the other site and I don’t intend to here so I’m not sure what definition they endorsed. I’m referring to the existing systems that try to define masculinity as emotionless and stoic, sees their role as bread-winner and disciplinarian, obsessed with sex to the exclusion of everything else. The systems that say “boys don’t cry” and “man up” when things are hard, those are systems exist in the west and are absolutely part of “patriarchy” or whatever phrase we agree to use.
It’s not just semantics. Terms such as “patriarchy”, “toxic masculinity”, and “male privilege” habitually come with a load of negative messaging about what it means to be a man. That is toxic and we should avoid that.
I prefer terms such as “harmful gender expectations” as it puts the locus of the problem in society rather than the nature of men. Young men growing up deserve better than to be demonized for their gender and to be driven into the arms of toxic figures like Tate.
The patriarchy has never even existed in western society. The gendered problems you’re talking about were caused by the monarchy.
I just don’t have time to do a proper response right now. I think pretty much everything you’ve said is incredibly helpful and I can only speak for myself here, but I hope you stick around.
Except one thing. Blaming it all on the patriarchy. I’m pretty sure that it’s not your intent, but I think this is not a good thing to do, especially when speaking to a vulnerable man. I’m sure you have your definition of what the patriarchy is and that it clarifies why what you said is perfectly reasonable, but from the perspective of a vulnerable man hearing “patriarchy” this and “toxic masculinity” that (which to your credit, you didn’t say the latter), rationally or not leads many to start seeing masculinity itself as problematic. Which for vulnerable men, especially those with anxiety issues leads to self loathing and a lot worse problems down the road.
Frankly, I think, when trying to help vulnerable men, you should make sure to keep feminist ideology out of it. Otherwise you risk making things worse, not in a big hit, but in a death of a thousand cuts kind of way.
Does that make sense?
If you live in an oligarchy, does that make you an oligarch? Are you responsible for what the oligarchs do? If not, then why does the same not apply to patriarchy?
Contrary to your perspective here, I think it is useful to examine the social context, including how gender is systemically wielded to reinforce power structures that were designed to support the lifestyles of a select few. Living in a patriarchal society doesn’t mean you inherently benefit simply by being a man. It’s more about putting you into a box so you behave as expected and perform the roles pushed onto you. Having narrow definitions of masculinity or femininity and strictly defined gender roles (no crossing over!) are a big part of building and maintaining those boxes for everyone.
This post above particularly emphasized the value of breaking out of those expectations:
Removing other peoples expectations of what you should be and living based on your own expectations is freeing. […] You will be happier since you can focus on what makes you happy not what others want think will make you happy.
power structures that were designed to support the lifestyles of a select few
Exactly. It’s not men in general that have been in power, but a select few men and women. It is then incorrect to use the terms patriarchy and patriarchal systems (as commonly understood) to describe our society. Because there are plenty of men at the bottom too, even more so.
Contrary to your perspective here, I think it is useful to examine the social context, including how gender is systemically wielded to reinforce power structures that were designed to support the lifestyles of a select few. Living in a patriarchal society doesn’t mean you inherently benefit simply by being a man. It’s more about putting you into a box so you behave as expected and perform the roles pushed onto you. Having narrow definitions of masculinity or femininity and strictly defined gender roles (no crossing over!) are a big part of building and maintaining those boxes for everyone.
This is not contrary to my perspective. I completely agree with this. I disagree with naming the cause of this problem “patriarchy”. I consider this to be engaging in victim blaming.
Contrary to your perspective here, I think it is useful to examine the social context, including how gender is systemically wielded to reinforce power structures that were designed to support the lifestyles of a select few. Living in a patriarchal society doesn’t mean you inherently benefit simply by being a man. It’s more about putting you into a box so you behave as expected and perform the roles pushed onto you. Having narrow definitions of masculinity or femininity and strictly defined gender roles (no crossing over!) are a big part of building and maintaining those boxes for everyone.
This is a great definition. It shows how these hierarchical systems are set up to support just a few. Everyone else gets just enough to survive but only by sacrificing a portion of their selves. They are suppose to feel lucky since they are not at the bottom.
This may seems like a strange source by I really enjoyed the Copenhagen Pride definition of feminism
FEMINISM
Feminism refers both to a political movement that originated in the battle for equal voting rights for women, and a political ideology that strives to attain equality between all genders. Although feminism arose from the women’s rights movement and have come a long way under its banners, there has recently been a move towards more focus on the struggles of other minorities in society. This is referred to as intersectional feminism: the intersections that occur between identities which affect the way a person experiences society, for instance as a black bisexual woman, a non-binary person with a disability, a transgender gay man, and so forth.Feminism rejects the traditional patriarchal values that oppresses the individual regardless of gender. An aspect of this is the notion that women are worth less than men, or that being straight is preferable to an LGBTQIA+ identity. The struggle of women in society is still an issue deserving of undivided attention, but it does not need to be at the cost of addressing overlapping identities that face problems on a similar basis.
An example: A boy gets teased in school for wearing a dress. Here, feminism tells us to disregard the idea that there is a correct way of “doing” your gender, and instead encourage us to express ourselves freely. It may sound simple, but we live in a society that is deeply influenced by traditional understandings of gender, and it requires and active awareness that not everyone fits into the classic binary understanding of gender. And that’s totally okay!
HOW DO WE WORK WITH FEMINISM?
The feminist work practice of Copenhagen Pride is tied up with the recognition of privilege blindness. Privilege blind refers to the tendency to be unable to see the challenges faced by others because of your position in society. It is not in and of itself a negative thing, but it can be harmful because it can lead to the exclusion of certain persons or groups. By recognizing this blindness, we can get insight into our distinct challenges and thus become better at helping one another out. An example of privilege blindness is the fact that the global Pride movement has often been criticized of only catering to (primarily white) gay cisgender men and forgetting about the other identities in the acronym. This comes to show if a Pride chooses to only have pictures of this group in their promotional material, thus contributing to a feeling of exclusion by others, who may not feel as welcomed. We can work against this by actively incorporating women, transgender people and QTBIPOC[1] into our strategies and representation and making an effort to amplify the voices that have a hard time being heard. This is ideally done by working towards having decision making persons and groups representing a broad section of our community. A way to use your privilege for good is to pass on the mic, instead of believing that you can speak on the behalf of others. That’s our responsibility as feminists!
This IS progress. Much better than the previous but simpler definition that went like “Feminism is a movement that fights for gender equality for women”. Which is a bit of a oxymoron if you ask me.
The next step is to recognize that cultural norms that harms people on the basis of gendered expectations isn’t uniquely or even primarily caused by an elite few, but is a systemic wide cultural problem for which both men and women are responsible. Using “patriarchy” as the term to refer to this problem is a best misleading, causes unnecessary division and leads to a certain myopia when looking at how to address the problem.
The step after that is that it is obviously absurd to name a gender equality movement after only one of the genders. Again this alienates certain groups of people and prevents them from contributing to the conversation on an equal footing.
But in practice, that’s not what’s going to happen. There’s not going to be a flipped switch and everyone agrees to stop using the word patriarchy to refer to the ills of society or to rename feminism to something else. Instead, little by little, the more sensible people recognize these issues and individually choose to no longer use the patriarchy and feminist terminologies. Until the only the only people left still willing to call themselves feminists will be the most radical of misandrists.
What other words are there to switch to? It is hard to argue that we should use different terms if those don’t exist yet.
This might give you a case of déjà-vue, but “harmful gender expectations” is a pretty good alternative. It doesn’t cover all the reasons why someone might want to use the term patriarchy, but it covers a large portion of them, in particular it does cover the use of it in this thread that set off all this discussion.
And I think using clearer more precise terms depending on circumstances would be greatly beneficial. The terms patriarchy seems easily misunderstood and misused and I’ve seen many people go so far as to believe that the term is intentionally misused or intentionally misunderstood.
On a somewhat related topic, what do you think of male privilege. Are men a privileged class?
There was a guy in this thread that talked about how acknowledging his male privilege literally saved his life (I’m exaggerating). But he also had the misfortune of using the word “Toxic” followed by the word “Masculinity” without any irony and therefore suffered the wrath of our merciless mod.
I spent 30 minutes preparing a reply before I realized there was nothing left to reply to, I ended up sending it to him in a dm. But you seem to have a bit more advanced understanding of these topics so I’m curious what you think of this one.
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You’re fine, there’s a lot of toxic ideas out there that men should be cold and unfeeling. But that is absolutely silly. Emotional sensitively is an incredible gift. Check out the resources around highly sensitive people, that might help you like it helped me.
https://hsperson.com/ https://highlysensitiverefuge.com/highly-sensitive-person-signs/
Get your bloods tested. I was very sensitive to everything and finally a doctor thought to test my levels of everything related to anxiety/depression/mood. Found out I had extremely low testosterone (less than half the bottom average number) and higher estrogen than I should have. After starting TRT I’m like a new person. I can actually handle things now.
It’s easier said than done but try not to worry so much about living up to what you believe other people expect of you.
You’re worried that being emotional makes you less of a man but men like F1NN5TER dress like this and don’t feel like any less of a man.
I don’t know how else to describe it, but all my male friends and family are very unemotional. Not in the sense that they don’t feel anything, but that they are a lot better at handling them and I feel like I’m not.
Suppressing your feelings and “handling” them are NOT the same thing. Give yourself permission to feel anger. There’s no shame in that.
You’re picked on relentlessly, by the people who should be a source of comfort and support. It’s okay to be angry about that. Frankly, it sounds like they’re the ones who need to control themselves, but since they don’t, all you can do is deal with it.
I have anger management issues. Over time, I’ve learned to recognize the “warning signs” of an outburst, and prevent it before it affects others. I don’t waste time criticizing myself for getting angry in the first place, because getting angry isn’t something I can control. I CAN control my reactions to anger, though. Remember to think of those things separately - feeling anger (which is okay) and reacting to anger (which you need to work on).
Sometimes I just need to remind myself to keep my mouth shut. Sometimes I actually need to leave the room, and give myself time to calm down. No, it’s not ideal, but it’s a lot better now than when I was fourteen.
Learning to control yourself takes time. You can do it, but it will take a while. Don’t get frustrated and quit. Give yourself credit for small steps, because they matter more than you think.
For example, if you realize “I’m about to be an asshole”, then proceed to act like an asshole anyway, that is progress. Don’t criticize yourself for “failing”. Be proud of yourself for beginning to recognize your limits. That’s a major step. You can’t begin to work on your reactions until you get to know yourself!
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Please avoid terms like toxic masculinity here, as it is a toxic term. Masculinity is good. Toxic behaviors have nothing to do with it. Toxic gender expectations may be a better fit.
I like that: toxic gender expectations and toxic gender roles. Thank you
Would a woman having mood swings be called less feminine? You’ve got the wrong perspective. Find a new therapist; one that will tell you as many times as it takes that being emotionally sensitive has nothing to do with your gender identity (and everything to do with harmful societal views).
Some people are more emotional than others, and things like adhd make them worse to handle. Everyone’s different. Find ways to cope with your emotions, whether that’s walking away briefly from the problem, or find the source. Hit the things that are making you feel insecure: do some exercise, or talk with your friends and family about how this is bothering you and you’d prefer their support. Above all, do things for your own sake and health, not anyone else’s.
And get some “friends” that won’t tease you for having emotions! :) Or talk it out, idk how emotionally mature your friends are.
If anyone else is looking for a better therapist for this type of problem look for one with a social worker background, uses the word systems, culturally competent or holistic in their description. They will have more education about how society, culture and upbringing effects mental health. Not all therapists have the same training in this way
If you’re having a hard time, it has no impact on whether you’re a man. That’s not the thing to worry about.
Take care of yourself, and it’s good to get better at handling stuff, but don’t worry about how it effects your level of manliness.
Hey man fuck them, be your own person.
Everyone is different and that is a good thing, every group needs diversity it makes the group as a whole better.
Are you passionate? That’s ok!
Is it ok to be angry at something and have an emotional outburst? Absolutely you are a human its part of the deal!
Do you without worrying what everyone else thinks.
You might be an HSP. (Like me.)
I’m not sure it’s a ‘real’ thing but it makes some sense.
(best viewed with Newpipe or an ad blocker.)
I feel you. What helped me is to know that there are, and always will be, all kinds of men out there. And maybe I’m not the most macho guy, but I shouldn’t be consumed with trying to be, if it’s not really who I am.
Part of being a man, or really just a well-adjusted adult no matter who you are, is being confident in your skin and accepting of yourself. Sometimes a bit of self-talk can help with this, though YMMV as everyone responds differently to different tactics.
I completely understand where you’re coming from. I’ve always been more sensitive than most guys my age. I was also a late bloomer and I’m quite scrawny. The majority of my friends in school and even now are female, I’m just more comfortable with them.
It’s okay to be the way you are. I would focus more on handling your feelings than worrying about being “manly.” Don’t let the social standard of masculinity bring you down, some people like us just aren’t that masculine and there’s nothing wrong with that.
I fought trying to be masculine for years and I was never happy. As I embraced just being who I am, I found myself being more comfortable. Besides, toxic masculinity is complete shit and the less people with that mentality, the better.
