• fox [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    24
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    1 year ago

    The difference is between private property and personal property. Private property is the means of production that produce wealth by extracting a profit margin from the labor of the workers that operate that means. Seizing private property is just democratizing the ownership of it between all the workers that use it, because you can’t really steal a corporation or a factory, just change ownership. Seizing personal property is taking someone’s toothbrush or car or books.

    • Chriskmee@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      Stealing ownership is still stealing though. You are suggesting we steal personal ownership in a company, ownership which is only worth a certain amount because the stock market says it is.

      • Kynuck97 [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        17
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        It’s not like they’re going to just give it up. Do you think that the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few people is a good thing? Is it a good thing that billionaires get to waste money shooting off rockets while so many people go without a roof over their head?

        • Chriskmee@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Wealth in this case is ownership in companies that have a massive worldwide presence. If wealth is ownership in the companies you own, then yes, I don’t think they should be forced to give that up. What they decide to spend their wealth on is up to them.

          • Kynuck97 [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            What they decide to spend their wealth on is up to them

            The only acceptable way to use that much money is to reinvest it in the society that enabled you to become a billionaire.

            It would cost around 20 billion dollars to end homelessness in the US, why should people be allowed to have net worths of 100 billion+ when it would only cost 1/5th of that to provide everyone with a home? Is stealing from one man to house hundreds of thousands of people a bad thing to do? Is personal ownership of wealth worth more than human life to you?

            • Chriskmee@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              The only acceptable way to use that much money is to reinvest it in the society that enabled you to become a billionaire.

              Bill Gates seems to be doing a decent job of that, I’m glad he made the choices he has to redistribute his wealth, and I’m also glad it’s his choice.

              It would cost around 20 billion dollars to end homelessness in the US, why should people be allowed to have net worths of 100 billion+ when it would only cost 1/5th of that to provide everyone with a home?

              I really doubt it’s that simple. Where are these houses being built, in the middle of nowhere I suspect? How many homeless people want to move there? Will there be jobs out there? What about electricity, gas, and Internet?

              • Kynuck97 [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                Why would they need to be built in the middle of nowhere? We can build high density apartments if we need to, a roof over your head in a small apartment is better than the sidewalk.

                • Chriskmee@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Because the price you quoted wouldn’t be nearly enough if we built in expensive cities, it has to be built in cheap to build areas for that number to make sense.

      • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        11
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        ownership which is only worth a certain amount because the stock market says it is.

        Market value and use value are not the same thing. Cases like Musk obviously display wild overvaluing, but the practical use a repatriated asset can provide is not the same as its price tag unless your only use for it is to sell it.

        • Chriskmee@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          So how do we calculate wealth if it isn’t based on what the market says it’s worth? If we are going to tax Musk on his wealth, most of which is stock, how do you figure out the “real” wealth to tax?

          • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            In the case of stock, when we say it is “overvalued”, that is implicitly based on the idea that there is a better evaluation that we can at least estimate, wherein (using more Marxist terms) the use value and market value are more correlated.

            How a wealth tax should be implemented depends a lot on the society in which it is implemented. If we are assuming it is just the US but with a wealth tax, then I think ignoring what I said and taxing people more when their stock is higher makes sense, because market-dictated wealth represents really the ultimate ability to direct society within the US. In other countries with more checks against the wealthy, another approach may be more justified.

            Really, I don’t like wealth taxes compared to other models like a higher capital gains tax, but anything that takes money disproportionately from all billionaires is probably going to have my support merely for that fact, because anything that mainly hurts them is likely to be a good thing relative to the nothing we have.

            • Chriskmee@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              What about the middle class that relies on stocks to retire? If you aren’t aware, retirement accounts are usually mostly stocks, do we tax the middle class retirement money?

              I think your last paragraph is pretty telling, just blindly supporting anything that hurts billionaires simply because they are billionaires, no matter how unfair or unjust it is, or even his bad the consequences would be for the country.

              I think there is a reason the most successful companies are from the US, you would have them move their bushes elsewhere that’s more supportive of their size?

              • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                Obviously I don’t want to fuck over retirees, so it should be a progressive tax, since those retirement accounts don’t reach 8 figures, let alone 10 to 12.

                I was pretty careful in my phrasing about it hurting billionaires specifically rather than hurting a larger swath of the population that included billionaires. Given that, I don’t think it would hurt “the country” very much at all, and indeed benefit the country because billionaires are a perpetual malus on us.

                I think there is a reason the most successful companies are from the US,

                There are several reasons, and I think you probably aren’t adequately accounting for the US being the global hegemon and engaging in brutal imperial exploitation as being chief among them. The US literally goes to war using the most over-funded military in the world for the sake of oil companies. It backs juntas to get cheap deals on lithium. It authors puppet governments for fucking bananas.

                Regarding capital flight: It’s awesome if billionaires want to flee. If they try, seize everything from them. They play ball or fuck off, no need to accommodate them playing God.

                • Chriskmee@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Even a progressive tax is going to fuck over retirees, unless you are suggesting 0% below like $10M. Even then they are still paying taxes either when they put the money in or when they take it out, so taxing on the value is just double tax dipping.

                  So you are actually suggesting if billionaires want to move we steal everything from them? How is that even remotely ok?

                  • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Even a progressive tax is going to fuck over retirees, unless you are suggesting 0% below like $10M. Even then they are still paying taxes either when they put the money in or when they take it out, so taxing on the value is just double tax dipping.

                    Retirement funds are still not going to exceed like 5 million in the vast majority of cases, but sure! Let’s have it be marginal below 10M, that’s fine with me. The petite bourgeois should mainly be targeted with things like higher taxes on housing they rent out, and that’s really a secondary concern in most places.

                    So you are actually suggesting if billionaires want to move we steal everything from them? How is that even remotely ok?

                    Yes, I am. It’s as easy as “don’t engage in capital flight” to not get hit by it. We can even be generous enough to leave them just a tiny bit, say 1% if they have exactly 1B, since 10M is quite a lot for a human.

                    Why should they be entitled to gut factories where they used the labor supply and infrastructure to make their money, destroying the local economy and putting many people out of work? “Property rights”? This is going to blow your mind: human welfare is more important than the property rights of people who are richer than God and could get by in insane comfort while never working a day for the rest of their lives anyway.

                    If I had to weigh the wholesale destruction of communities against John Locke feeling disappointed, I’ll gladly accept the latter and travel to England to piss on his grave.

                • Chriskmee@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  It would be worthless if half the ideas in this thread were enacted. Luckily they won’t be and tons of middle class people will be able to retire thanks to the stock market.