I’m a complete novice to mech and ergo so I apologize in advance for any sins lol
The 3 I checked are Kinesis 360 (https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/), Glove80 (https://www.moergo.com/collections/glove80-keyboards) and the Moonlander (https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/).
These below are what I got from watching reviews:
- Kinesis is difficult to customize and sometimes has connectivity issues
- Glove80 feels cheap
- Moonlander doesn’t have many keys and thumb cluster is on odd position
Considering the prices, the moonlander is about US$100 cheaper than the others, so feels like a better option.
I am interested in options with keywell, as they feel way more comfortable, but anything will be better since I use an conventional non-split keyboard.
The right menu links to a compare tool but there are so many.
My hands are small, so it may constrain the options I have. Or maybe not.
What are your opinions/suggestions/experience with these types of keyboards?
I have a moonlander and generally really like it, however I would take a second look at the glove 80. I’m tempted to eventually sell my moonlander or start saving up for a glove 80.
The moonlander is pretty solid, and you can get used to the thumb cluster, but I have smaller hands too, and it’s tough to reach across all of the moonlander while touch typing. I think a key well would help with that issue.
Taking a better look at the glove80, it’s definitely appealing to me, since it also has the function keys on it. It’s about CA$550 vs about CA$450 for the dactyl, which has less keys.
I’m trying to find one that I can use for years to come, since they are very pricey.
Please don’t tell me about other keyboards! I got a Moonlander, am really happy with it and consider it my endgame board. Not like all the other endgame boards, I swear!
Amen to that. The moonlander is tough as heck so far for me. I take it back and forth to work everyday (because I don’t have the money for 2, lol), and it’s holding up well.
The glove 80 is supposed to be getting a case soon from what their website says which will make that easier to lug around.
The glove 80 is supposed to be getting a case soon from what their website says which will make that easier to lug around.
Seems like it has one now: https://www.moergo.com/collections/glove80-keyboards/products/glv80-soldered?variant=44253212377361
It looks like you’re focusing on prebuilt boards. Most ergo mechs are sold as DIY kits with a fair amount of soldering required, and for keywell boards it’s very common for them to be fully handwired.
You can also buy assembled keywell boards, for example from bastardkb and there are a few folks who build dactyls for sale. These options will probably be relatively expensive as they are basically handmade by one person.
Flat ergo boards will be cheaper in general than keywell ones. If they have a tenting option and you use keycaps with a strong sculpt like SA or MT3, that might get you a fair bit of the way towards keywell functionality. But you’ll still need to find a good layout for you (which is totally personal).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/kukkurovaca/52064906373/in/photolist-2njNfKx-2oBeHCK-2njQEqG
It will be somewhat easier to find fully assembled or easy-to-assemble flat ergo boards, like the Keebio Iris or Boardsource Lulu.
I looked mainly on prebuit since the DIY didn’t feel to fit what I was looking for. When I was searching for ones with keywell, no DIY models came up.
What I noticed with the one you suggested and some others I found when looking around is that they don’t have many keys.
Is it common to have a separated numpad?
Also, out of curiosity, what are uses for the thumb knob? I saw that in some models and also on yours.
When searching for DIY Keywell models, use “dactyl” in your search terms for most results. Most DIY Dactyl builds are handwired, although there are some models that make use of flexible PCBs such as the ones from BastardKB. (My keywell board is a TBK Mini from them.)
Re: the number of keys, this is pretty personal. Most ergo mech users are using something in the ballpark of a 60%, 40%, or 35%ish layout. (My objection to the Glove80 is that it has way, way too many keys for me)
Most ergo users have numpad on a layer. (Here’s how I have my layouts)
You can also take a look at Sofle, the Corne or the Ferris Sweep, they can be bought prebuilt on several stores online (or Etsy).
I haven’t used either of those 3, but I have used a few dactyl manuforms, and an ergodox before that.
For a mech beginner the Moonlanders web customization menu is fantastic. It’s pretty polished and has a lot of the features that you would want or need at an entry level mech user.
If you have experience with soldering you could investigate hardwiring a 3D printed Dactyl. My personal favorite iteration is the Carbonfette version due to theodded thumb cluster.
Personally I use a skeletal, tented manufom: Threaded Dactyl Flex
The Dactyls look interesting, keywell, tenting. I’ll take a look at them!
I can solder but it doesn’t mean it turns out good lol
Your soldering skills only need to be middling to be able to pull off a dactyl manuform. In fact the first time I ever picked up a soldering iron was to build one. Just take your time and you should be fine.
That looks amazing, do you have the stl files? Any pain points during the print or wiring? I’d like to build one and I was wondering if you had any advice
I’ve loaded them on Printables.
I’ve since modded it to work with my Norne Project since that upload. But I wasn’t overly happy with the outcome so I haven’t bothered uploading that mod. Currently the dactyl halves are mounted on the tripod ball mount rings from that album. Will get some better pictures when I get home. Would be an interesting post to add here I’d guess.
Wiring it gets a bit iffy when moving into the thumb cluster. You have to have a good deal of wire to get the rows and columns there in order to not pull it loose when repositioning.
You will likely need electrical tape or shrink wrapping on the exposed wiring or resistors so that they don’t short out against the wiring from the main boards.
I have a Moonlander and find it works well for me. Took a little while to get used to, but really not long, and the longer I used it, the more I liked it. Not sure what you mean that it doesn’t have many keys, as it has way more than a lot of ergo keyboards?
It has more than the ergo I saw too. I’m used to number row and function keys and wouldn’t want to lose that. That would probably take some getting used to it but if I can still have those keys, no reason to choose one that doesn’t.
I know of almost no ergo boards that have dedicated function keys. Moonlander does have number keys though… and you can use layers to turn those into function keys…
I saw some mentions of layers but in all fairness, it’s not appealing to me if I want to hit F6 to make the cursor go to the browser’s address bar.
But thanks for mentioning! It may help others.
Yeah, I get it. I say the same thing about boards with no number keys and people tell me I can just use layers. But for whatever reason, layers for function keys makes more sense to me. It’s just like pressing “shift” except instead of “shift” you press a different button and the number/function key.
Just as an aside, I didn’t know F6 did that. I use Ctrl+L, which does that same thing but also drops down the suggestions.
TIL! I didn’t know that shortcut.
I’ve used a moonlander at home for a couple years, and while I would hardly call myself a power user I do like it a lot. I also have relatively small hands, and now that the layout has been tailored it a little bit I do notice a signifcant difference in feel vs when I have to use a standard keyboard at work comfort wise.
I’ve eyed the Kenesis but I like hot swapping switches too much, and haven’t mustered the motivation to build a dactyl even though I have the shell printed.
FWIW I love my Kinesis Advantage 360 Pro. I did initially have connectivity problems but it’s been solid since. There’s also a beta 3.0 firmware which I am now running that is much, much more stable. The configuration is the same for any ZMK board, so I didn’t have issues since I have been using ZMK for a while on other boards. It has a learning curve but it’s relatively simple and for basic remapping the GUI works well.
Had you used any non-keywell ergo keyboards before the 360? If so, how much better is the keywell option compared to them?
The gist of it is “is it worth $200 more to have keywells?”
Also, to answer the root question: The keywells and contoured design are 1000000000% worth $200.
Nope, but I had several coworkers that swore by Advantage2s. I broke my left arm for the second time in my life last year and one of them implored me to try their extra Advantage2 so they lent me one, and I haven’t had wrist or shoulder pain since. I bought my 360 before I could even touch type on that borrowed Advantage2.
Thanks for that. It makes me less resistant in spending more to have keyboard with keywell.
I hope your arm is fully recovered now!
It’s never going to be the same, unfortunately. I do wish I had started caring about my ergonomics before I got hurt again though. I was a huge fool to think that a “good looking” keyboard was more important than a keyboard that was built for human usage for so many years.
Also, don’t skateboard folks. At 15 I got some sick permanent titanium parts from the first broken arm, and then at 37 I broke the same arm doing the same crap and it sucked. 6+ months later and it still hurts and I will never regain the same range of motion.
I went from a WASD keyboard to a Beekeeb Piantor. It’s amazing.
I don’t miss the top number row, because I just put the number pad on a different layer. With two thumb keys each activating a layer, or both together activating a tertiary layer, 42 keys is more than enough.
I swapped to a moonlander a few months ago, and though I love it I still haven’t gotten used to it yet. I also have small hands and I feel like i can’t quite reach well enough to type properly, but maybe you’ll have more luck
Do you mean getting used to in the sense of it having columnar keys/typing speed or pain/discomfort?
I’m still not used go the columnar keys and it being split, it takes a lot of mental effort for me to keep track of which half has which keys. It’s very comfortable to type on, I probably just need more practice on it than I’ve had time for.
Some of the videos I watched involved them doing typing training to get used to columnar layout. I’m sure it’s a learning curve.
Hope you can get used to it soon!
Me too! I just need to use it more but I’m hardly at my computer these days. It’s great for gaming though, just being able to use the left half and shove the right in a corner and have more mouse space than I know what to do with.
I heard good feedback that since firmware 3.0 for the KA360 the connectivity issues have been solved.
Maybe I’m too late, but after looking at all of these options and a few more, this is what I’ve decided I’m switching to
How is it?
I was interested in it also but, other than modules, it looks like a traditional split keyboard that I could get for way cheaper, but damn those modules look juicy.
IIRC, Xah Lee in his review specifically mentioned that glove80 are better suited for smaller hands than KA360 as it feels more compact. Having a different pinky column curvature probably also helps. I’d also be interested to know if glove80 is factually more compact (in terms of e.g. key spacing).
Take a look at u/noneagoninf 's reviews here for more first hand experiences.
