• nieceandtows@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    31
    arrow-down
    115
    ·
    1 year ago

    Is that why they beheaded babies, paraded naked women before/after raping/killing them, targeted civilian congregations and killed them without warning? Wait.

    • sh00g@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      65
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      1 year ago

      The Hamas attacks were barbaric and horrific. Israel giving 1 million+ people 24 hours to leave or risk being destroyed in a bombing campaign while cutting off access to food, water, and fuel is barbaric and horrific. There is such thing as nuance, but it doesn’t take very much critical thinking to recognize that both Israel and Hamas are commiting atrocities.

      • TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        33
        arrow-down
        7
        ·
        1 year ago

        It serves Israel for Hamas to exist. Everything Hamas does leads to the death of Palestinians more than Israelis.

        • Limitless_screaming@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          6
          ·
          1 year ago

          And everything they don’t do changes nothing, they’re slowly dying and have been for a while now. Their public image changed nothing, and it wasn’t about to.

          • TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            It wants to eliminate Palestinians, not Hamas. Hamas is the villain they use to justify their genocide.

            • mwguy@infosec.pub
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              A WW1 era military could level the Gaza Strip with WW1 era munitions. Arguing that Israel, with a fully modern military and munitions system, is trying to genocide Gazans but just can’t for some reason is arguing that Israel’s military is the most incompetent military to ever have existed.

              • TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                6
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                The reason they can’t just level Gaza is that when the dust clears they need to be seen as the good guys. Think for just one second, even if it hurts.

                • mwguy@infosec.pub
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  After an event, proportionally the size of 44 9/11s I think they could get away with anything really.

        • Eheran@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          arrow-down
          19
          ·
          1 year ago

          Israel protects their people, instead of investing everything into trying to destroy the enemy. Hamas even digs out water pipes to build more rockets. As per their own propaganda Video, no less. They are proud of that.

            • Spzi@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              6
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              A counter example: X initiates violence. Y steps in to end this, and partially succeeds. X wants to continue. Y oppresses X to prevent it.

              Not saying that resembles the Israel-Hamas conflict, just that the logic is a bit flawed. In most random street violence situations, the oppressed in the end was the person who initiated the violence.

              • TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                4
                ·
                1 year ago

                It takes all parties to create peace, but as long as the initial assault continues there can ultimately only be one responsible party.

            • thatsage@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              You can easily find Hamas own videos and learn from them.

              They’re not even pretending, they outright say they’re running a jihadist war against Jews.

              • TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                You can easily find videos attributed to Hamas. You can’t verify that Hamas aren’t funded by Israel. You can’t verify that Hamas are Palestinian. You also can’t blame the oppressed for any actions they take to rebel against their oppressors (If you have any integrity.)

            • mwguy@infosec.pub
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Never in history has violence been initiated by the oppressed.

              That may be the most historically inaccurate statement I’ve ever heard.

              Like what was the French and Indian war then? This statement could excuse the initiation of violence of any group in history, including the Nazis.

            • Eheran@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              7
              ·
              1 year ago

              I learned it from Hamas propaganda Videos. Those they produce and make public. Like that one showing them removing water pipes to build more rockets.

              • TrismegistusMx@slrpnk.net
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                8
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                You don’t know that those videos weren’t created by the IDF as propaganda. You don’t know that Hamas isn’t entirely made up of IDF. You only know the narrative that reinforces your world view. Israel loves to do things like bomb residential areas then cry that Hamas uses human shields. They love to respond to fireworks with carpet bombs.

        • P03 Locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          8
          arrow-down
          19
          ·
          1 year ago

          So, why does Palestine still house and hold a high opinion over Hamas? A terrorist group just lives over there in Gaza Strip and Palestine doesn’t lift a finger to get rid of them.

          • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            17
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            To you, me, and many of us, they’re a terrorist group, but to those who get stepped on by the Zionist for decades, who have their home bombed, who land got stolen, who families and relatives got killed, they are their only hope.

            • P03 Locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              1 year ago

              To you, me, and many of us, they’re a terrorist group

              To all of the groups that matter, they are a terrorist group.

              but to those who get stepped on by the Zionist for decades, who have their home bombed, who land got stolen, who families and relatives got killed, they are their only hope.

              Then they aren’t living as a government that deserves statehood. If a terrorist group is the one leading the country, that becomes the definition of that country.

              • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                To all of the groups that matter, they are a terrorist group.

                good way to say “they deserved to be wiped out, innocent or not”, which isn’t something shocking coming from war criminal apologist.

                If a terrorist group is the one leading the country, that becomes the definition of that country.

                Just like War mongering state of America and War Criminal state of Israel?

            • thatsage@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              6
              ·
              1 year ago

              Hamas isn’t their hope. If they were lead by a peaceful and sane govermant, instead of terrorists, Gaza would’ve looked so much better today.

              Hamas doesn’t care about Gaza and it’s people, the leaders are corrupt and living abroad, the money that’s meant for schools and services and infrastructure goes to their pockets or weapons, and the biggest prisoner of Hamas is Gaza itself.

              • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Easy for you to type out such comment in your own comfortable chair, but for them, if Israel didn’t force them out of their own land and treat them like sub-human for decades, they won’t resort to rely on extremist.

                Want them to make better decision? Give them their land back, pay reparation fee, rebuild their destroyed facilities, in return disband and deradicalize. It took decades for a lot of wartorn country to get back on their feet and it’s no difference here. If you truly think Israel can wipe out Hamas with their bombs and violent, then you must’ve missed what happened to Afghanistan.

                • P03 Locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Afghanistan was actually doing much better than it was under Taliban control. Women had rights, and weren’t living in fear. Reforms were happening. The whole country was moving in a positive direction.

                  Until Trump fucked all of that up and made a deal with the Taliban to regain control again.

                • thatsage@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Israel definitely could have treated palastinians better, but not in matters of land… Israel didn’t force them out of their land. It was founded legally and went on to win territory in wars in which it was the defender and offered innocents to stay and gain citizenship.

                  Later on, the palastinians didn’t agree to several 2 state proposals which Israel did agree to, thus relinquishing again the keys to their own future.

                  Israel invested and invests into their infrastructure, which they don’t manage well usually, like the water treatment plans Israel transfered to them when exiting Gaza.

                  Afghanistan’s story is not the same as that of Hamas and will not end the same, I hope as many innocent people of either side come out on top and have a chance at a peaceful future, with Hamas buried and gone.

                  Gaza and Israel could normallize relations and Gaza could prosper.

                  • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Israel didn’t force them out of their land. It was founded legally and went on to win territory in wars

                    The sheer amount of mental gymnastics here is astounding.

                    Later on, the palastinians didn’t agree to several 2 state proposals which Israel did agree to

                    I wonder why 🤔🤔🤔

            • Eheran@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              6
              arrow-down
              12
              ·
              1 year ago

              They are their hope? By mudding over 1’000 innocent people? Well, looks like they fucked up. But I assume this is what Hamas wanted to begin with, since they don’t care about Palestinians at all.

              • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Yep. Two group need to cease to exists for this war to end, Hamas and the Zionist. Both group goal is to eradicate each other, kinda like that two giant from Xenoblade Chronicle.

                • thatsage@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  4
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Except the only real guilty party there is Zanza, and they do end up living peacefully with each other once Zanza is removed.

                  Hamas is Zanza.

                • Eheran@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  10
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Hamas are the only group that can stop this, yet here we are, they do not even release the hostages! Israel could only stop this if they are destroyed. The same way Ukraine can not end the war with Russia, only Russia can do that.

                  • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    4
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Nope, because the same way as Russia vs Ukraine, Russia and Israel is the main perpetrator and the oppressor.

          • DeepFriedDresden@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            14
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            Why did Israeli police do nothing to stop the increasing violence perpetrated by illegal Israeli Settlers attacking Palestinians, of which Palestinian police are forbidden to react to? Their cops aren’t allowed to do anything, their illegal occupants cops won’t do anything, and the majority of Israeli Jews say they dont want Palestinians to have the right to vote if they annex Gaza. A minority of Israelis support a two state solution.

            It’s not like Israel has been trying to play ball with them.

          • barsoap@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            Why are there still Kahanites in Israel’s government?

            Also, get rid of Hamas with what. Are you going to give them weapons to do it?

      • Sambarkjand@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        arrow-down
        14
        ·
        1 year ago

        I don’t know if you noticed but it’s been more than 24 hours since they said that and they’re still letting them evacuate. Time to retire that talking point.

        • sh00g@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          6
          ·
          1 year ago

          Sure. Except “letting them evacuate” in this case is better characterized as “continuing to expel them from their homes under threat of violence.” I’m not arguing the 24 hour time period is the atrocity, I’m arguing the act of creating a humanitarian crisis under the auspices of a military campaign effort is abhorrent.

          It’s not like we don’t have any good reporting on the matter either. The BBC for example has already been attacked because they refused to declare Hamas as terrorists (a label I agree with, for the record). [This article](BBC News - Khan Younis: A Gaza city on its knees, now with a million mouths to feed
          https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67116403) provides some insight into the absolute horror regular Palestinians are going through right now.

      • Tygr@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        16
        ·
        1 year ago

        When Israel declared war, what do you think that meant exactly?

    • Sacha@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      66
      arrow-down
      11
      ·
      1 year ago

      Two wrongs don’t make a right. Both sides have done wrong. Isreal has attacked ambulances unprovoked. Hamas attacked Isreal at a music fest. Isreal retaliated by attacking schools and hospitals (aka, people that had nothing to do with said attack) Isreal has been subjugating Gaza to sub-human conditions for 20+ years. The attack on the music fest isn’t justified but it is understandable.

      Again. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

      • Eheran@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        17
        arrow-down
        44
        ·
        1 year ago

        Hamas launches their rockets from random roofs, stores the rockets in schools and hospitals. The blood is on Hamas hands.

        Still shit when innocent people get hit, no question. Israel has their fare share of atrocities, so no need to “give” them some of Hamas shit.

        • NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          18
          arrow-down
          9
          ·
          1 year ago

          Which videos? I have seen the pictures they were trying to use to justify beheaded babies.

          Spoiler alert, no beheaded babies!

          • Eheran@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            arrow-down
            17
            ·
            1 year ago

            What about parading dead, innocent people through town and cheering for it?

            Do you want to see crispy, burned babies? Together with their parents? Do you think they did not commit absolutely fucked up atrocities?

            • can
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              16
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              Those are awful. But, you should remove “beheading babies” as there’s been no proof of that and you lose a little legitimacy saying it.

              • Eheran@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                9
                ·
                1 year ago

                I did not say that. But given what I have seen, including beheadings, I have no doubt it happened to babies too.

                • can
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Thought you were the top-level commenter, sorry.

            • NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              8
              ·
              1 year ago

              Those are fucked up things that I completely denounce.

              Fuck Hamas and fuck Israel.

              My only support is for all the innocents involved.

              • Eheran@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                11
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                They are justified in making sure such an atrocity does not repeat. They owe that to their people.

                They are not justified for randomly killing innocent people. Sadly, Hamas uses them as meat shields, so there is not going up be a way to avoid that. That blood is in Hamas hands. But they have to try to minimize it. Which they at least seem to do with roof knocking, telling them to leave etc.

                Also, what about that propaganda now?

                • NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  8
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Just because someone does something wrong doesn’t mean someone else should.

                  I just don’t understand why I keep having to explain this to people.

                  Am I justified in killing a person to hurt the person holding them hostage?

                • spiderplant@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  6
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  If you murder me then go into hiding should the state execute you’re entire family because someone needs punished to ensure it doesn’t happen again?

                  Roof knocking my hole, they told Palestinian people what street to evacuate on and then killed like 150 people who tried to evacuate using that road. Never mind them bombing Gaza’s borders so they can’t escape that way and caused shells to fall on other sovereign nations which started returning fire, escalating this whole shitfest even further.

    • jet@hackertalks.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      10
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      Is that suitable justification of a genocide? That some people of a ethnic group committed heinous terrorist acts? How many people individuals can condemn an entire race of people? 1, 5, 2000, 10,000?

      • thatsage@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Seems that one might be a mistake. But the rest isn’t, instead they did things like tie children and then shoot them.

      • mwguy@infosec.pub
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        That’s not what was confirmed. Not all of the 40 murdered babies (from one village) were beheaded. At least one was.

    • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      Woah if you didn’t include the two item, one cannot and refused to be confirmed to the point that White House have to issue a statement saying they just “heard” from the Israel Authority, and one you’re so undecided which is which, i’d thought you’re talking about Israel.