Tankies traditionally are associated with communists, but today’s tankies (even those that call themselves communists) are really after authoritarianism than communism, and given the history of the name (that they supported using tracks on civilians). I don’t think they’re is much difference between current communists and current fascists, both groups seem to support authoritarianism and feels like term “tankies” fits both of them well.
Even the most fascist redfash still would have killed the nazis.
They’d kill who they define as nazis. I find that tankies’ (especially Hexbear) definition of nazism doesn’t entirely correspond to mine or that of most other people. So this is not something to be super optimistic about.
I really have no idea what people are trying to say or getting at in a lot of these comments, it feels like one of those art experiments where words don’t have meaning but are used to express emotion
Lol redfash killing nazis isn’t worth praise. Redfash kill each other the first chance they get. They are so paranoid when they come to power they purge anyone and everyone they can.
so even though it’s fallen into fascist oligarchy,
You know any left wing project after being overthrown by the US would also end up a fascist oligarchy right? As was the case with the illegal and undemocratic dissolution of the Soviet Union brought about by the US.
Even the most fascist redfash
A mainstream Jewish holocaust scholar on equating fascism and communism and why it is bad
I hate it when threads like this make me have to repeatedly post the mainstream Jewish holocaust historian “stop conflating fascism and communism” article
Wait but I’m a communist. As in communes first, no state, no hierarchy, collective ownership, and all that jazz. I’m not super well read on the theory. Its really easy to see the difference, we’re not splitting hairs here.
I mean if your definition of collectivism is men with guns taking what they want then yeah that sounds likely. I’m also a collective anarchist, but it’s important to note how far we must come as a species before we can actually engage meaningfully in such a philosophy, otherwise it will just regress on progress made in other spheres. Bolstering of education is a good step in this process, but also moral and philosophical teachings.
Collective anarchism, along with all utopias, is unachievable, but a system incorporating its tenets is certainly possible, I just question whether it would devolve into men with guns taking what they want.
I most certainly do not mean men with guns taking whatever they want. That is authoritarian. The revolution is an ongoing process to redefine society as a non-hierarchical. I see it as non-violent: only defending against violence, never inciting it.
We as a species are far enough for anarchism to work, people just have to stop believing in authority, and we have to help them.
I also do not think anarchism is a utopia. There is nothing about it that couldn’t work. Non-hierarchical societies have existed, and their dissolution just means people aren’t ready yet.
Yes, but in the anarchic society, what stops men with guns from taking what they want?
You understand that you can still have anarchy without collectivism right? It’s just called lawlessness, and when that happens, men with guns take what they want. Literally just look at any period of political instability in pretty much any country for just about all of history. What stops our current society from devolving into that if anarchic revolution were to occur?
Also, I’m not reading the book you linked. If there’s relevant information, feel free to point out which paragraph/section.
I think it is best to clarify my terms. Anarchy to me is a structured society built entirely out of free associations.
It isn’t lawless. Anarchy has rules. A lawless society will naturally take the shape of the people in that society. If all the people are anarchists, they will create an anarchist society, if they are statists, they will create a state. Society is a collection of people living together there is no reason it has to be hierarchical. The people are the ones who make it like that.
What stops our current society from devolving into that if anarchic revolution were to occur?
An anarchist revolution is the complete transformation of society to use non-hierarchical power structures.
If after the revolution the society falls back into hierarchy then that means the people were not willing to let go their addiction to authority.
The link is for an FAQ, technically not a book, since most books are shorter than 3077 pages. However it does contain every question one might have about anarchy and answers it pretty neatly.
Wanting all of that but without the authoritarian bit should be called something else. I’m from a country which was occupied by communists (collective ownership was a thing) and it sucked big time.
Ouch. Thats really disappointing to hear and like I think more important for me as a western leftist is probably not reading theory but how these things go wrong and lead to bad outcomes.
There is no perfect system, textbook wonderland communism has lots of flaws too. In my ideal world it should be a mix of everything.
Communal gardens or hobby workshops are great, communal workplaces not so much. I mean, people should be allowed to get rich if they can do it without abusing others. You should be able to start and grow your company, and get paid for it accordingly.
That could make a fine compromise. If we can remove that capital barrier to starting your own business, we can remove the profit incentive to pay rent or loans. Working for an enterprising person would be really nice.
Yes, when it comes to the axis from authoritarian to anarchist. Things all tend to narrow in to a single point at either end. In regards to authoritarians, it’s all about the hierarchy and holding power for themselves. They don’t give a shit what form of government sits under that. When it comes to anarchists and libertarians, no government other than a largely flat form of socialism is acceptable. Simply because they are focused on freedoms both individual and social. And large monolithic hierarchies tend to get in the way of that.
And when I use the term libertarian I of course mean actual libertarians. Not temporarily embarrassed Republicans, or teenage capitalists. The easiest test to find out whether someone might accidentally be a libertarian or not. Is to find out if they belong to the Libertarian party, or ever plan to vote for their candidates. No one who would ever do that could ever be a libertarian lol
those “libertarians” are just anarcho-capitalists who think the issue isn’t the system itself but they couldn’t get access to the pie soon enough and get a bigger piece than everyone else so they think we should do a reset do this time they can come out on top
it’s enough to look at how Crypto works with it’s deflationary system where first buyers are much stronger than late comers or the MOAS /ape crowd
Absolutely. Though even calling them in Arco capitalist is still to generous and a blight to the term anarchist. (I’ve met a few anarchists that were too idealistic and unreasonable for their own good. But they are generally pretty chill, reasonable people otherwise.) They are no true libertarians. Actual libertarians push not just for freedom from things like government. But also the freedom for everyone in society to be able to do the things they desire. One without the other is not a libertarian.
Tankies traditionally are associated with communists, but today’s tankies (even those that call themselves communists) are really after authoritarianism than communism, and given the history of the name (that they supported using tracks on civilians). I don’t think they’re is much difference between current communists and current fascists, both groups seem to support authoritarianism and feels like term “tankies” fits both of them well.
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They’d kill who they define as nazis. I find that tankies’ (especially Hexbear) definition of nazism doesn’t entirely correspond to mine or that of most other people. So this is not something to be super optimistic about.
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I really have no idea what people are trying to say or getting at in a lot of these comments, it feels like one of those art experiments where words don’t have meaning but are used to express emotion
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Ah yeah that makes a lot of sense 🗜️
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Lol redfash killing nazis isn’t worth praise. Redfash kill each other the first chance they get. They are so paranoid when they come to power they purge anyone and everyone they can.
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Lemmy world are nazis?
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Meanwhile, .ml keeps banning my accounts for just commenting on c/worldnews these days.
I’m not a troll. You can go look at my contributions. I made some hexbears look like idiots and now they’ve got me on a leash.
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I muted a couple dozen hexbear accounts when the whole instance was out seemingly trying to antagonize the entire fediverse.
Turns out that got the vast majority of annoying trolls from there.
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You know any left wing project after being overthrown by the US would also end up a fascist oligarchy right? As was the case with the illegal and undemocratic dissolution of the Soviet Union brought about by the US.
A mainstream Jewish holocaust scholar on equating fascism and communism and why it is bad
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
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Slaps Table Thank You!
I hate it when threads like this make me have to repeatedly post the mainstream Jewish holocaust historian “stop conflating fascism and communism” article
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
Are you aware how obnoxious it is to spam a 5,000 word article while refusing to provide any summation or distillation of its thesis?
Paste it into ChatGPT if you’re having reading challenges
I’d like to respond, but I’m going to need you to read 5,000 words on my personal philosophy towards online commenting before I do.
im sorry you have a problem reading
I’m sorry you have a problem summarizing
Wait but I’m a communist. As in communes first, no state, no hierarchy, collective ownership, and all that jazz. I’m not super well read on the theory. Its really easy to see the difference, we’re not splitting hairs here.
That is why I use anarchist instead. It means all of that while also making it clear that authoritarianism is not ok.
That’s called collective anarchism. Anarchism is what the name implies… and most lemmy users wouldn’t last especially long lmao
More specifically, yes. It is collective anarchism, but in this context I think it is obvious enough that I don’t need to clarify it further.
Also I think that any type of anarchism allows for collective anarchism, and by extension could be used to mean collective anarchism.
I mean if your definition of collectivism is men with guns taking what they want then yeah that sounds likely. I’m also a collective anarchist, but it’s important to note how far we must come as a species before we can actually engage meaningfully in such a philosophy, otherwise it will just regress on progress made in other spheres. Bolstering of education is a good step in this process, but also moral and philosophical teachings.
Collective anarchism, along with all utopias, is unachievable, but a system incorporating its tenets is certainly possible, I just question whether it would devolve into men with guns taking what they want.
I most certainly do not mean men with guns taking whatever they want. That is authoritarian. The revolution is an ongoing process to redefine society as a non-hierarchical. I see it as non-violent: only defending against violence, never inciting it.
Between writing that comment I read through the anarchist FAQ on revolution.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/the-anarchist-faq-editorial-collective-an-anarchist-faq-full#text-amuse-label-secj7
And I agree with it wholeheartedly.
We as a species are far enough for anarchism to work, people just have to stop believing in authority, and we have to help them.
I also do not think anarchism is a utopia. There is nothing about it that couldn’t work. Non-hierarchical societies have existed, and their dissolution just means people aren’t ready yet.
Yes, but in the anarchic society, what stops men with guns from taking what they want?
You understand that you can still have anarchy without collectivism right? It’s just called lawlessness, and when that happens, men with guns take what they want. Literally just look at any period of political instability in pretty much any country for just about all of history. What stops our current society from devolving into that if anarchic revolution were to occur?
Also, I’m not reading the book you linked. If there’s relevant information, feel free to point out which paragraph/section.
I think it is best to clarify my terms. Anarchy to me is a structured society built entirely out of free associations. It isn’t lawless. Anarchy has rules. A lawless society will naturally take the shape of the people in that society. If all the people are anarchists, they will create an anarchist society, if they are statists, they will create a state. Society is a collection of people living together there is no reason it has to be hierarchical. The people are the ones who make it like that.
An anarchist revolution is the complete transformation of society to use non-hierarchical power structures. If after the revolution the society falls back into hierarchy then that means the people were not willing to let go their addiction to authority.
The link is for an FAQ, technically not a book, since most books are shorter than 3077 pages. However it does contain every question one might have about anarchy and answers it pretty neatly.
@GiveMemes that’s what current society is. You just happen to be on the side of the men with guns
Wanting all of that but without the authoritarian bit should be called something else. I’m from a country which was occupied by communists (collective ownership was a thing) and it sucked big time.
Ouch. Thats really disappointing to hear and like I think more important for me as a western leftist is probably not reading theory but how these things go wrong and lead to bad outcomes.
There is no perfect system, textbook wonderland communism has lots of flaws too. In my ideal world it should be a mix of everything. Communal gardens or hobby workshops are great, communal workplaces not so much. I mean, people should be allowed to get rich if they can do it without abusing others. You should be able to start and grow your company, and get paid for it accordingly.
That could make a fine compromise. If we can remove that capital barrier to starting your own business, we can remove the profit incentive to pay rent or loans. Working for an enterprising person would be really nice.
Yes, when it comes to the axis from authoritarian to anarchist. Things all tend to narrow in to a single point at either end. In regards to authoritarians, it’s all about the hierarchy and holding power for themselves. They don’t give a shit what form of government sits under that. When it comes to anarchists and libertarians, no government other than a largely flat form of socialism is acceptable. Simply because they are focused on freedoms both individual and social. And large monolithic hierarchies tend to get in the way of that.
And when I use the term libertarian I of course mean actual libertarians. Not temporarily embarrassed Republicans, or teenage capitalists. The easiest test to find out whether someone might accidentally be a libertarian or not. Is to find out if they belong to the Libertarian party, or ever plan to vote for their candidates. No one who would ever do that could ever be a libertarian lol
those “libertarians” are just anarcho-capitalists who think the issue isn’t the system itself but they couldn’t get access to the pie soon enough and get a bigger piece than everyone else so they think we should do a reset do this time they can come out on top
it’s enough to look at how Crypto works with it’s deflationary system where first buyers are much stronger than late comers or the MOAS /ape crowd
Absolutely. Though even calling them in Arco capitalist is still to generous and a blight to the term anarchist. (I’ve met a few anarchists that were too idealistic and unreasonable for their own good. But they are generally pretty chill, reasonable people otherwise.) They are no true libertarians. Actual libertarians push not just for freedom from things like government. But also the freedom for everyone in society to be able to do the things they desire. One without the other is not a libertarian.
It’s called campism and it’s dumb teenager stuff.