So this dude is basically a 46 year old man child and I don’t wanna armchair diagnose people, but he’s probably on the spectrum.
He’ll say a pun or a “funny” phrase, stare at you till you acknowledge it, then when you do, he’ll just keep saying it over and over. Even if you don’t acknowledge it he’ll say it a bunch then switch to a new one.
He’s obsessed with making fart noises then pretending it’s someone else he’ll even do it while we’re eating lunch. I’ve tried the politely asking him to stop he just says “oh you know I’m just joking” then when I tell him its genuinely annoying he goes full kicked puppy and acts super sad for a few hours and gets all woe is me saying stuff like “oh well I guess everyone hates me I’ll just shut up forever”. Sometimes he even goes full non verbal and literally just tries to communicate by pointing and or writing notes.
It’s not like he’s an asshole he a genuinely good guy he’s good at his job and he’s got your back when you need it.
I guess I just have a hard time finding the balance between not being an ass to a guy with zero social skills and losing my sanity because he can’t be quiet for 5 minutes.
In a comment you mentioned you’re the team lead. Maybe you already are, but just in case: stop thinking about it in terms of the individual personal relationship and start thinking about it in terms of the team dynamic. It’s unlikely this only affects you, so even if their individual work performance is fine, does their behavior affect other people’s performance or happiness at work? If it’s affecting others negatively it’s your responsibility to protect them and their work output, even if that means finding a new team for this person or documenting a path to letting them go altogether.
I don’t envy you. Good luck.
This guy manages.
Talk to you boss, talk to your hr rep., make a proposition to openly talk about workforce manners in group without pinpointing at anyone specifically. Look for another desk. Work in a meeting room from time to time. Buy noise canceling headphones. Punch him in the face or quite your job.
I vote quite your job
Oh my god that sounds like a nightmare
(Disclaimer: armchair expert here, admittedly with some personal experience)
Poor guy. Rejection sensitivity is a thing, and it sounds like this guy’s got it bad. Some people essentially walk around with the emotional equivalent of a bad sunburn - even a casual touch can be pretty nasty.
If he’s as socially awkward as this suggests, the whole “setting boundaries” thing is likely hard for him to deal with, and his reaction suggests that he’s never learned to handle feedback very well. I’m assuming there’s no hint of malice, just childishness and being oblivious of social norms. 46 years’ worth of subtle or overt feedback along the lines of “you’re not pulling this social thing off” can make people do some weird and counterproductive things in order to try to fit in. It can also sensitize them extremely to criticism no matter how accurate, necessary and well-intentioned.
If you can make sure he knows you’re on his side, and are very careful to not make things sound like an attack, you have a reasonable chance of getting through. He is distinct from his fart jokes, and people don’t dislike him but specific bits of inappropriate behavior. Since any hint of rejection tilts him, help him be secure in the ways he’s valued. If he’s got the classic “bad with subtext” thing then you need to be prepared to spell things out, while keeping it inoffensive. As a hunch, I’d stay well away from anything that sounds like a judgment either on your part or anyone else’s - stick to the facts. This is what happens when people get distracted, humor is important in the workplace but there’s a time and place, etc.
That being said, you don’t need to coddle him too much (particularly if he’s either guilty about needing it, or suspects it’s not genuine) but it’s ideal if it works - he’s happier and stops setting himself up for “rejection”, everyone else is happy due to less friction in general, you’re happy, your boss is happy.
If that doesn’t work, it might be time for brass tacks: “this specifically doesn’t work, it doesn’t mean people hate you, but it does need to stop.” In the extreme, he could dig in and then you might want to call backup from e.g. your superior or someone less hands-on.
There’s a sentence in this that every single reply to this has either ignored or missed, and that’s the part where you think he’s autistic.
From the small snapshot of his life and personality that you’ve offered it does seem that he shows some pretty clear signs. It may be that he doesn’t even realise. I know that I’ve very recently come to realise that I’m obviously autistic and I’m very much an adult. How everyone around me throughout my entire life missed it/didn’t realise is absolutely boggling.
Whether he’s diagnosed or not shouldn’t change that it should be handled with the appropriate sensitivities and equality policies as if he was autistic. But that’s entirely up to your work place and it’s culture.
You all need to remember that while you ‘only’ have to be around then during the times you’re around him, he has always got to deal with being autistic, whether he knows he is or not. And from the sounds of things he may not be very good at masking, which is both good and bad for him. As a person who seems to be neurotypical, you live in a world that is designed for neurotypical people. He isn’t and doesn’t. Imagine being forced to live in a world where you need wheelchair ramps, but there are none provided - anywhere. He needs mental ramps.
You are more than entitled and allowed to not want to deal with him or be around him, please don’t take this as saying that expect you to do that. But there needs to be sensitivity and an understanding of his struggles. If he is autistic, he cannot help the way he approaches situations or how he feels when you rebuff him. To him being told he’s annoying is clearly something he’s taking very, very personally. Take it from someone who is also autistic, it’s horrible. I feel like my entire existence is being rejected, and it sticks and I ruminate on it for hours sometimes days.
So speak to HR first, see what their equality policy is, and what options that they have. Hopefully the company culture and policy recognises that a diagnosis isn’t always possible or needed. And take it from there. Ultimately I think that some of the responses about finding time where you can separate yourself from him is the most likely solution.
Sorry mate this is just wrong all the way up and down.
Don’t try diagnosing a co-worker, don’t go running to HR asking about “equality” for someone you’ve diagnosed, and as a team leader just separating yourself from your team is not a solution.
Don’t recall diagnosing him anywhere, but you go ahead and read what you want to read so that you can create a straw man.
I said that it’s a possibility and therefore should be approached with the care that entails.
But your solution, reading your other response is to talk to the person. Which, if you had read the original post, you would have realised they have already tried to. And their response to that detailed.
So what do you propose? Because if the person who is annoyed by the co-worker shouldn’t take time separate from their team to be able to complete aspects of their work, then the alternative is to…? The idea that a TL/manager whatever cannot trust their team to be able to leave them to work without them is obscene in itself. I guess the entire place falls apart when they have to go into meetings or trips etc.
I’m sure you’ll decide to read whatever you want from the above as well, and you do that. I’ll leave you to it.
Your entire post is about managing a neurodivergent person. That’s a diagnosis.
It’s completely inappropriate to make assumptions about a co-worker’s mental faculties, and to act on those assumptions.
OP did try talking to the person but frankly, doesn’t seem very experienced in that regard.
OP needs to build a working relationship with this guy such that he doesn’t respond to feedback as though it’s a personal attack. The only way to do that is talking.
Yeah I get it I actually have social anxiety that’s why I’ve been so patient with him. I fully understand his reaction it’s just that I’m not close enough with him nor am I a therapist able to work through it with him.
Have you tried being more empathically direct with him?
“Hey man, we all like you a lot and think you’re fun to be around…but you gotta cool it with the jokes at work. It might not make everyone uncomfortable but knowing that it can make some people uncomfortable is uncomfortable in itself. I know you mean well and I don’t want to see someone raise a complaint to HR and get you in trouble”
Am actually super experienced in this. I’ve been the fart maker, I’ve been the manager, I’ve been the co-worker tolerating it. Here’s what you do.
Call a team meeting, preferably with HR discussing behavior similar to this, without pinpointing fart jokes but close enough that the message gets across. Maybe say there have been anonymous complaints. Definitely do if possible this will come in handy later.
With step one done, here’s how you deal. If at all possible, develop a bond with the guy, pretend to like the fart jokes. Maybe even make one or two yourself so he feels you’re in this together.
Then, when you tell him to stop, blame HR.
“Haha! Oh, how I love our fart jokes mr.man, but we should lay off of them before HR calls us in!”
“Can’t let you get fired over that, I need you here bud, not fired over a fart joke haha”
This typically has worked from what I’ve seen. When you make someone else, especially a company, the “big bad” and get people to feel like you’re on their side/fighting for them they’re typically more willing to bend a little bit.
Have you tried… you know… talking to him about it?
I mean a cool headed calm discussion avoid not making farther noises.
I guess it depends on the culture of your work place but honestly I feel like this is something that can be easily resolved and it’s part of managing a team.
So the issue is it’s like a loop you be nice and ignore him he thinks he’s cool.
You be mean and tell him he’s annoying he paints you as the asshole.
You be nice and tell him he’s being annoying he throws a pity party and makes you feel guilty for saying anything.
Sorry mate. IMO this is really bread and butter for a team leader.
You’re not children. You don’t need to be “nice” or “mean”.
- hey guy
- I’m really enjoying working with you. You seem to be amazing at x. I’m really hoping I can learn about y from you.
- If I’m really honest though, I just can’t concentrate with the fart noises. I know it’s just a joke and maybe others are ok with it but it really disrupts my flow, every time.
- Anyhow, how have you been going with z.
Fair point I am probably overthinking it.
You’d be surprised how good ChatGPT is at providing an answer just like the one homie just gave ya.
There is an effective formula for feedback I like.
- When you x it has y effect
- Pause for them to reply, ask questions, or even better - suggest an alternative
- It would be better if z
In this case, when you make repeat the same joke it loses all humor value and becomes an annoyance.
It would be better if jokes were limited in use, and certainly not repeated.
he throws a pity party and makes you feel guilty for saying anything.
Have you tried not feeling guilty? :-)
It is still the same: It is his bad behaviour. Regardless how many times he switches from one kind of clown to another kind of clown.
Yes it is hard, you need to stay calm and act like a grown up at all times. Otherwise he ‘has got you’.
If you can stay calm, then talk about his behaviour, and how inappropriate it is, and ask him to stop it. Every time.
Sure, but what’s the end game supposed to be, then? Just making the same request over and over again indefinitely?
One of them is going to learn something some day (and then a change can happen). Do you ask who? I think it depends on what is worse: giving that talk or having to listen to that talk.
Sounds like a Tim Robinson sketch
I was half expecting this to be a shit post about the office dog or something like that.
You need to speak frankly about this with your manager. Your manager needs to talk to this person about what behaviors are acceptable and what are not. If your manager is unwilling to do this, it’s time to go.
If you genuinely mean what you said at the end: he’s a good guy, he’s good at his job, and he’s got your back.
Then just practice Zen, don’t let him get to you, you only interact with this person socially at work, you could skip the lunches, you could just ignore the things he’s doing. But where it counts he’s got your back.
Developing the perspective, and the life skills, to just let temporary inconvenience slide off of you or even not matter to you, is a great life skill that has lots of benefits.
That’s been working for the past two years but I feel like I’m reaching the end of my patience.
Your options
A. Talk to him directly, frankly, like you would to somebody on the spectrum. See if they can modify their behavior
B. Talk to HR, who will try to scare him, and may eventually fire him
C. Change departments or find a new job, then you don’t have to deal with him.
You said they’re a midlife adult, it’s going to be hard for them to modify their personality. If you’re okay with them getting fired then go with option a than b. If you’re not okay with them getting fired go with option a then c.
Best of luck!
This is very relatable to me. A supervisor in my team has Asperger’s. She has zero social skills. Says very unprofessional things, interrupts conversations and completely changes the topic to something nobody cares about. She is a hoarder and has way too many dogs/cats, her hygiene isn’t the best.
Most of us have worked together for 5+ years and have learned to ignore it as much as possible. It’s clear that she’s not doing this on purpose and doesn’t realize how annoying/rude she can be. I don’t really have a solution for you. This is just something you learn to live with. It’s still very annoying and frustrating to deal with but I don’t think there’s any solution that wouldn’t negatively impact her.
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And where will that get me? She is not like the person the OP described. She brushes off that kind of feedback, it’s not something she even realises she’s doing wrong. It’s her personality.
She’s had complaints brought up against her and was passed up for promotions many times. It’s never changed the way she acts. The thought doesn’t even cross her mind that she is being passed up for promotions because of her social skills. We can’t have a manager saying the kinds of things she does, bad enough she’s a supervisor.
I’d just be straight with him, in a kind manner tell him his behavior is something you’re having a hard time with, that you expect him to take your feedback on board, and that you’re not interested in dealing with him acting out because his feelings got hurt.
Document everything, give him a chance to modify his behavior and if he persists, you’ve given him a chance and now it’s time to talk to HR because you’ve done everything you can reasonably be expected to do. It’s not your fight anymore.
So… do you trust your HR department and/or boss?
You might be able to get some headway with “I’m sorry, but I’ve got [this project] and I need to get it done, I need to focus”
if that doesn’t work you can either tolerate it, or complain to your boss. something like “I’ve asked him to stop making fart noises, for example, or won’t stop trying to talk to me and I have work to do.”
at least he’s not like, a total asshole. but in some regards, it makes it harder to deal with. so I’d suggest consider getting somebody else to deal with it.
So unfortunately I am his boss we do have a supervisor over us I could talk to though.
If you’re the team lead, something like this is your job. You could ask your supervisor for guidance, but ultimately you should be able to solve this on your own.
As others have mentioned: Speak to him. Don’t be nice nor mean - be professional. Tell him how his behaviour affects you and the rest of the team. Talk to him about appropriate workplace behaviour and what you want him to change.
Maybe this will work, maybe it doesn’t. How he handles your feedback is up to him, he is an adult, even if he doesn’t act like one.
If he doesn’t change or keeps ignoring you (his boss!), document his behaviour and go the HR route.
chat to the super for advice, assuming he’s a reasonable sort. Don’t sell the employee out, just… you know?
While I agree with what you you are suggesting part of me thinks that if that will work, someone in the office would have done it already.
For op’s sake, I hope I am wrong.
That’s the trouble. Frequently this kind of merely annoying behavior is allowed to continue because nobody says anything because he’s not a bad guy. HR/the boss may not even realize it’s happening, never mind impacting work. You’d be shocked what people have gotten away with because ‘they’re nice people’.
part of their job is to smooth out these issues- there’s no reason to be aggressive about it, but if it’s impacting work, part of their job is managing it. shit managers though… will be aggressive about it- either with OP, or with this guy.
I agree that can be the case.
I have also seen cases (I spent years as a contractor working in many different places) where management knows about it but refuses to actually do anything about it due to laziness/nepotism.
I mean, yeah, people have but and he’ll stop talking to them specifically and start mentioning how he doesn’t like them whenever they come around or come up in conversation. But he never looks inward and wonders if he is annoying because there’s enough people that tolerate him.
It’s like a loop you be nice and ignore him he thinks he’s cool.
You be mean and tell him he’s annoying he paints you as the asshole.
You be nice and tell him he’s annoying he throws a pity party and makes you feel guilty for saying anything.
Are others complaining to you about his behavior? Because you’re his boss, I wonder if this could function like any other improvement conversation.
What if, instead of calling him “annoying,” you pulled him aside separately at another time and phrased the convo as wanting him to focus on “professionalism” and/or “work appropriate behavior”? If you are clear about what that means and bring examples to the table, that might help.
You could cover his passive aggressive responses in the conversation as well–pointing and writing notes and pity-partying are not appropriate ways to communicate in your workplace.
Yeah I’ll probably go that route. I’ve never called him annoying.
the worst I’ve done is tell him he’s not helping when he made me lose my count on something.
I was counting a part when he came to talk to me about something completely unrelated. I didn’t respond, and when he asked what’s wrong I told him I’m just trying to keep my count. He then he continues to talk about his thing and I lose my count. So I do an exasperated sigh tell him I just lost my count can he come back later. He then started counting the wrong parts out loud so I stop him and say that’s not helping. Then he puts on his kicked puppy face said he was just trying to help and went non verbal for an hour after that.
Sorry, I don’t know how complex your team’s role is, but in our environment of oncology research this individual is not improving their behavior, is disruptive, using your niceness, and I would put them on a PIP to improve or let go. The folks on the spectrum that I’ve worked with do not react with kicked puppy face, instead they’re profoundly grateful for the social guidance and try to improve. This guy honestly sounds a little manipulative.
Don’t tell him he’s annoying. Call him out when something’s not appropriate for the workplace (like the fart jokes) but don’t make it about his personality.
Consult HR on how to go about the quirks that aren’t inappropriate but still very annoying. They can give you the language toolbox you need.
You have to give him some sort of status or reputation that contradicts the annoying behavior.
If you tell this man ‘you remind me so much of the Doctor from Doctor Who’, get him to watch Doctor Who, he will start to take on aspects of the character. You can do this with most popular media that people on the spectrum like.
he sounds bad ass
That’s what I was thinking! I seriously said out loud, “This guy sounds like a trip.”
