Hey guys. I admittedly am mostly a layman to the Fediverse as a concept. So I am coming into this post with the knowledge that I don’t understand the technical intricacies of it.
I fully expect that Meta will act in as bad of faith as possible, that is something that I think we all agree on. But from what I understand about the Fediverse, I’m just having a hard time understanding how we would not be shooting ourselves in the foot unless we at least try to federate with Threads.
I am aware of Embrace, Extend and Extinguish.
Here are my understandings of the goals as a non-corporate fediverse:
- We love decentralization
- We love privacy
- We love self-reliance
- We would love to see the non-corporate federation grow
With those understandings, here are my questions:
Doesn’t the fediverse have an inherent protection and/or immunity from corporate take-over?
As I mention above, I am aware of Embrace, Extend and Extinguish. But, how is that a risk for the Fediverse?
QOL features, and gimmicky capabilities can be replicated.
The only thing we may not directly be capable of are 1st party Meta acct/apps integrations.
Aren’t we protected?
Threads requires effectively all personal data from its users. But only their users. We are not forfeiting any personal data by federating with Threads; we are isolated to, and protected by, our individual instances.
Is there anything currently stopping Meta from scraping the Fediverse for our content?
If even anonymized privacy is a concern, why do we think that defederating will protect us? We’re all posting our content on private servers which are wide-open to the public.
Won’t we grow & educate?
If we keep corporate instances in the federation, isn’t is safe to assume that the non-corporate instance will grow massively? Connecting with Threads and others will allow us to proselytize the benefits of moving off of threads, and improving their digital wellbeing. If we are not connected, they will largely remain oblivious to us.
EDIT: I think this is a benefit because the people who want off of Threads and into the Fediverse are the people who strive for Freedom. This atricle claims the fediverse is not looking for growth, but we do want it to grow with people who agree with its goals, right?
Aren’t we worried we’re forcing an ultimatum while the Fediverse is still in its infancy?
If we disconnect now, we are telling everyone “choose the shiny new Threads, or the clunky up-and-coming Fediverse”. This affects prospective users, and existing users.
What’s the harm in pulling the ripcord if we try it, and it’s truly not a good fit?
If we pull the ripcord now, we allow Threads to grow in their walled garden.
If we pull the ripcord later, we make an informed decision.
If we never pull the ripcord, we allow Threads to pull the ripcord if they ever so choose. That encloses them into their walled garden, which is exactly where they’d be if WE pull the ripcord now.
“What about an influx of low-quality content?”
This is a whataboutism I’ve heard. What’s stopping individuals from blocking their disliked communities?
“What if Meta doesn’t moderate well?”
This is another whataboutism I’ve heard. I personally think that Meta has a vested interest to moderate Threads enough to stay out of the news. As a publicly traded company, it’s in their best interest to not scare off their advertisers and shareholders.
If some low-quality moderation does persist though, we still have the ability to block users & communities.
Thanks for taking the time to answer any of these. I will likely have follow-ups, and if/when I do please understand I am asking them in a good-faith effort to try and clarify/understand.
I wouldn’t even waste that much thought about it.
It will (or should) be up to an instance what they wish to federate with.
Looking at your posting history (or almost complete lack thereof) I’m a little suspicious that these questions are as good faith as you claim. Having had years of debates with corporate PR infiltrators on such subreddits as r/permaculture and r/environment (to name a couple) this post raises some serious red flags with me.
I came over as a Reddit refugee, and really like the idea of fostering communities with like-minded individuals. That’s why I have founded 5 already, which replicate what I was missing from Reddit.
The last few comments directly before/after this post are the result of continuing my full train of thought, looking for clear answers, in a more visible format than the comments of a lemmy.ca post. From what I understood about the fediverse, I was surprised to see communities blindly defederating when it didn’t seem to be fully thought through (although I admittedly am new here, so I may just not understand). But that was the impetus of my questions.
As of me writing this comment, I have not found understandable answers to my questions yet.
That may be true, and if so I apologize. However, be aware that showing up with a newish account and asking “good faith questions” (or showing up with an account that participates in a few niche communities and THEN advocates for the procorporate view point) is a VERY common PR tactic, to the point that any time it happens it’s suspicious. Adding some subtle criticism or distrust of the corporation before spinning their point of view is common as well (also something we saw from more sophisticated Russian trolls during the 2016 and 2020 elections).
I will good faith tackle your questions.
Doesn’t the fediverse have an inherent protection and/or immunity from corporate take-over? Aren’t we protected?
EEE is totally an blatant risk to the Fediverse, which is vulnerable in exactly the same ways earlier examples of decentralized opensource networks were. Specifically, this strategy targets the lower effort, lower information and less ideologically motivated participants (which, once a network grows beyond a certain point becomes most of the participants) and tries to steal them away by connecting them to features and content faster than the opensource network can. Once those participants are using the corporate tools and participating in the corporate version of the network, you can drop support and give the original network back to whatever of the original participants are left.
Remember, if it’s free you are the product. The users are what these folks are after, and they know they can get them by providing a more convenient experience with more of the content users want to see, and then just biding their time, avoiding enshittification of their participating tools until they’re ready to cut ties and take the userbase with them.
Won’t we grow & educate?
I mean sure, but at what risk and what cost? The safest way to view this kind of thing is as a sort of attempt at colonialism. Let’s say you’re an indigenous person in 1780 and some white folks show up on your island saying they want to participate in your culture, learn about how you survive, teach you about guns and how there’s one alimighty God and Jesus is his son and be your new best friends? Let’s say you have a modern person’s knowledge of history when that happens? Do you see this as an opportunity or a huge threat to your culture and way of life?
Aren’t we worried we’re forcing an ultimatum while the Fediverse is still in its infancy?
This is the best time TO make a stand. The people who will be interested in what’s happening here and want to avoid corporate shenanigans can discover this place, while we protect it’s future. So what if we don’t grow to some ubiquitous cultural behemoth? Our volunteer hosted servers can’t support that right now anyway.
What’s the harm in pulling the ripcord if we try it, and it’s truly not a good fit?
Put a frog in warm water. Tell him when it gets too hot to jump out, he’s welcome to. Start to turn up the heat. What will happen?
Better not to be the frog in the water in the first place.
“What about an influx of low-quality content?”
I mean, I LIKE Lemmy’s content quality where it is right now. We should grow slowly and nurture this culture instead of growing quickly and getting overwhelmed.
“What if Meta doesn’t moderate well?”
I don’t even care, as I don’t plan to federate the instance I run with ANY Meta instance.
Hey, I’m an onlooker and really appreciate you answering these questions. I read once that debates/arguments may not change the minds of the participants, but they do change the minds of onlookers.
If OP is legit, thanks for the answers, it probably feels bad to ask questions and come away with zero answers and several accusations of being something you are not. If OP is a PR infiltrator, you’re probably assuaging doubts Meta tried to plant with this post in regards to taking a hard anti-Meta stance and fully defederating.
I remain unconvinced that threads is going to kill the fediverse. I haven’t seen any convincing arguments yet. Maybe I’m just a dumbass (I’m 100% a dumbass) but I really cant see how threads could make anything worse. even if they do eee so what. the fediverse is small now. if they join us but break compatibility down the line we’ll still be where we are now.
maybe I’ll just start my own kbin instance
with blackjack
and hookers
deleted by creator
