- cross-posted to:
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- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
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As usual if you’re looking to have any security (Verified boot) GrapheneOS + Pixel phone is the only options. I really don’t get it how come people in places like this are okay with having a phone with all their personal data and logins without verified boot. Stolen / lost phone and game over.
Getting a Pixel just to have Graphene is not always an option. At least not a sensible one that factors in everything that’s important when buying something.
My current phone still runs perfectly fine, so getting a new one feels like a massive waste, too.
And and what happens to your data if your phone gets stolen?
Doesn’t Android have file based encryption by default since a while now?
That means shit, if someone can compromise your bootloader in an hotel or some other public place then they’ll get to your data either way once you turn on the phone. This is one very small and very important detail that all those tech youtubers pro-privacy, security and whatnot love to ignore as it is the really hard one that makes all the difference.
Secure boot is a complex subject and it requires a lot of work and checks to make sure nobody tempered with your device and Graphene / Pixel are the ones that really give a shit about that (except for Apple that wants to block jailbreaking and pirated Chinese app stores at all costs).
That means shit, if someone can compromise your bootloader in an hotel or some other public place then they’ll get to your data either way once you turn on the phone.
I never really understood how this kind of attack happens. Can it simply be done in any phone? What are the required conditions?
This is the classic “evil maid attack” applied to phones instead of laptops.
Ah I see, does that mean that in terms of security, switching to another ROM on a phone with non re-lockable bootloader is a downgrade from the stock ROM?
switching to another ROM on a phone with non re-lockable bootloader is a downgrade from the stock ROM?
It depends on your goal. If you plan to have any kind of boot / data security and the device can’t be re-locked with an alternative ROM you’re essentially better with the stock ROM in a locked state.
Now that’s kind of personal choice, I believe the instant damage done by someone stealing your phone and getting your data (because your bootloader was unlocked) is considerably larger than the privacy implications of running the stock / vendor Android. For what’s worth if you can root your stock Android and firewall everything that seems suspicious it might be better than running an alternative ROM without a secure boot. Even with an alternative ROM you can run into privacy issues, take for example here CalyxOS running on Qualcomm CPUs. What’s interesting here is that this issue doesn’t happen in Graphene because they’re actually better at covering all grounds than CalyxOS and others seem to be.
Don’t you think it’s easier, due to inattention when installing a compromised app, a privilege escalation attack through root or actually an invasion due to the amount of bloatware from companies that take their piece of the pie in the Stock ROM (even though they do would cleaning via ADB) and even worse rooted to block these suspicious traffic be something more harmful for the user?
Because the ability to steal the decryption password in RAM memory due to the unlocked bootloader is a little less likely for the thief to have.
I use LineageOS and I feel much better, since my cell phone is Xiaomi, than using MIUI, which is from a chinese big tech company and has proprietary code.
Tell you what: I agree with you on this. If one is truly paranoid and takes physical security into account, a rooted stock OS is a far better option in terms of restricting access to system files (not saying the CIA/MOSSAD can’t do it, but your random reddit-informed script kiddie definitely can’t). Indeed, rooting your stock OS, firewalling everything and deleting telemetry might be a decent idea (there are ways to install security patches on rooted mobiles, not to worry).
Edit: on the matter of CalyxOS, I wouldn’t go as far as to fault them on it. Grapehene has taken a resolution to either block/use their own almanac servers. This requires a fair bit of work. Oh, and what domain do Google chips use for almanacs anyway?
Thanks for the info! I agree, without being able to outright change phone, you can only choose your tradeoffs
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Didn’t they get some grant from twitter or something like that? Cuz calyxos did get a million dollar grant last year from that jak dorsie guy.
I’ll be sad about that, but neither can I afford a new phone, nor would it be sustainable to buy one
Brazilian here, used to people being robbed all the time:
Almost 100% of the time, robbers just want quick cash, ant they will either 1: steal the phone and try to sell it (most robberies simply fall into this first category) or 2: point you a gun and force you to unlock the phone in order to 2a: force you to transfer money from all your banking apps or 2b: take it unlocked in order to send messages to your contacts asking for money.
Most robbers don’t have enough tech skills to even understand what a bootloader is. We live in techy social circles and we tend to think everyone has similar skills, while in reality, most people can barely use their devices. Just to illustrate how low are most people skills, if you format a drive with something like ext4, most of the population will be unable to access it.
The kind of situations where criminals will have high skills tend to be when they target specific people or companies, usually paid by crime lords or rivals. Such scenario is very unlikely to happen to the average joe.
Don’t get me wrong here, I’m not saying that security measures are unnecessary. I’m just telling how most criminals operate around here, and highlighting how we tend to overestimate people’s tech skills.
I’m in the same boat as you. Totally agree!
I need a new phone but I want one with a good battery.
Looking at pixels for gOS but worried about battery life compared to something like Moto Edge+ or Oppo 11.
I guess with the amount of spyware you will not be running on GrapheneOS will certainly help you with battery life.
I’ve been using a Pixel 6a with GrapheneOS and the battery life is just fantastic. Sometimes I can go for a whole week without charging, but this is the exception. But under normal circumstances, I still get like 3 days of battery life. You don’t need to be worried about that at all, battery life is even improved on GrapheneOS compared to the Stock ROM.
Dang a whole weeks seems like you’d have to not use it at all.
I have an s10e currently (been using it for over 4 years now) and the battery is shot. I’m at like 30% by noon. I use a lot of Bluetooth throughout the day at work. Basically 10 hrs of Bluetooth a day.
I just never see pixels on the top battery life for phones round up and that make me nervous.
I want something that will be at 30%ish when I go to bed.
On average I get like an hour and a half of screen time per day. I use my phone to message people on Signal, I connect it to my bluetooth earbuds and listen to music or a podcast when I go for a run and I occasionally like to take photos. I don’t waste my time scrolling through TikTok for 8 hours like many other people unfortunately do. One week of battery life is pretty rare, but it has happened before. As I said, usually I get 2-3 days out of it when I it charge up to 80%. (charging up to 100% is bad for battery health, so I try to avoid it). I’m sure you will be fine. You can get a Pixel, install Graphene, try it out and give it back and receive a refund if you don’t like it. That’s the good thing about Pixels, installing a custom OS doesn’t void the warranty or anything like that. You can just revert back to the stock OS and everything will be fine.
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Only 2 problems I have with Graphene personally is the need to give Google money, which the irony is just too much, and no option for rooting. Otherwise it seems like a pretty good OS overall. In the meantime, while I wait for those options to be more flexible so I can have full control, I just use a rooted lineage os with all the extra Google stuff (ntp, DNS, etc) stripped and replaced with my own self hosted systems.
u can buy a pixel second hand.
Money is still going to Google cuz I bet the person selling it is going to use it towards a new pixel from Google.
hmm. i see where youre coming from, but thats a bit of a stretch. you could use that logic for anything. imo its still much better than the alternative
@Mikelius @Imprint9816 what do you need root for? it makes absolutely no sense to root GrapheneOS and they won’t ever make that option available. It’s a huge security risk and massively increases attack surface. If you want root so badly, stay with lineage. Giving Google money for a product they make isn’t any different from buying a Samsung or Apple phone really.
I’ve heard and seen folks say rooting Android is a huge security risk and adds an attack surface, but haven’t seen anything to support the claims, really. Yes it’s less secure for the average person, who doesn’t know anything about security, to root an Android, but to say it’s completely insecure without any supporting explanation (not you in particular, just in general when this is said) doesn’t help. I like to imagine it like installing Linux and being told to trust the distribution you installed, but they disabled root and removed sudo because it’s insecure.
The reason I root is actually for both security and privacy. Without it, I can’t use custom firewall rules to restrict apps and system processes from reaching out to the internet or local network devices (AFWall+), have a local hosts setup (Adaway), run a VPN to my home network (Wireguard), and monitor all app network process calls (PCAPdroid) at the exact same time. It also prevents me from being able to create custom cron jobs and custom system changes I need that have only root access.
Being that I am also home 95% of the time with my phone on my person at all times, physical attack surface is less concerning for me, too.
With that all being said, the (assumed) excuse that “malware” is the security risk with root makes no sense to me because whether or not I have root access, phone malware probably doesn’t need it in most cases since they’re exploiting non-root things so that they can target the majority, not minority. Not to mention I rarely ever even install apps on the phone and most of my web surfing is done on my laptop, not my phone.
there are some niche reasons to root, like just tweaking system things or using rooted-only apps
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I guess there’s actually nothing stopping you from rooting: you say “nope” when they ask you to confirm re-locking the bootloader, and then do the usual shenanigans with patching and flashing boot partition.
However, it makes graphene a whole lot less grapheny since you can’t re-lock the bootloader anymore (except if you sign modified stuff yourself and let vb know of your key, which sounds like too much of a hustle), which means you don’t really need a pixel and graphene except for a few unique features mb.
whats rooted mean
You technically can root (https://xdaforums.com/t/guide-pixel-6-oriole-unlock-bootloader-update-root-pass-safetynet.4356233/), but I wouldn’t recommend it. I wouldn’t recommend rooting any version of Android, it unnecessarily increases attack surface.
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GrapheneOS or nothing :/
lineageOS?
LineageOS is great for customization and their own security updates. Its my daily driver. Definitely recommend it over any proprietary crap.
I mean from the privacy aspect.
What it offers? lineageOS is literally stripped aosp project with nothing on it just some essential apps of their own(I am on lineageOS, Whyred)
No bs in form of additional apps, but the core system itself does very little in terms of improving privacy
yes sir i am sincerely asking what exceptional it does?
Well, the table in the link OP posted does a good job of showcasing it
DivestOS absolutely slaps. Well, all things considered
Edit: It’s absolutely fantastic for what it is, and that is fact. Maintained by a single person, well documented, and doesn’t promise more than it can deliver.
wow, never heard of it. do u use it?
I’ve been using it for almost two years now, and I like it a lot. (small disclaimer, I’m running it on a OnePlus 5T, which is one of their so-called golden devices that it runs best on)
It’s pretty much the next best thing after Graphene, if you don’t want to buy a Pixel.
The guy who maintains it does an excellent job of documenting issues, what works on what device, what the system itself can and can’t do, it’s very transparent.
He doesn’t overpromise either, and explicitely states that getting a Pixel with Graphene is the better option overall. Greatly appreciate the honesty.
I’ll use it for as long as he’ll support my device, and then we’ll see if I switch to Graphene.
One important thing though: While you can install microG, DivestOS doesn’t officially support it, and while most things work, some don’t. SafetyNet, for instance.
nice
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I’ve heard of the general toxicity years ago already, but I will take no part in this drama and use whatever system fits the bill
Very toxic and rude community for sure.
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Well, I do oppose this kind of behaviour, but I also want to use a system that fits my needs.
So what should I do? Making more people aware of issues is often the best we can realistically hope for.
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hardened lineageos
Unlike LineageOS, it allows for bootloader relocking.
Yes!
TL;DR: Use GrapheneOS, it’s by far the best.
no option to root ; it has you lock your bootloader after installation
That’s kinda the point of using a pixel, y’know…
But it’s Google. Wouldn’t ever want to give that ad-platform my hard earn money.
What do you need root for? Having root privileges exposed significantly increases attack surface and decreases security. You can use Shizuku on GrapheneOS if you want to, it requires adb and works on any Android ROM. Also, there is a way to get root on GrapheneOS, but I really don’t recommend it.
Root can be useful for plenty of reasons: there are many apps which use root access to increase privacy, customize the system, restrict apps, manage battery charging, enforce firewall for apps and system, block trackers, backup the system, etc… I currently have 8 apps (if I don’t count all the lsposed modules) using the root privileges to do all of that but I also use it for other things like automation.
The only kind of security I want to have is privacy from my own apps installed on my system, something root privilege allow me to have. For the rest, I just don’t install any random program on my phone and I didn’t have any problem for years.
(and no, I can’t do any of that with shizuku or adb)
there are many apps which use root access to increase privacy
If you mean apps that allow you to restrict permissions of other Apps, there’s App Ops, it works with Shizuku
customize the system
You can do some customization with adb/Shizuku but for some things you might need root. But I would definitely value security over customizability.
manage battery charging
The OS can do that pretty well
enforce firewall for apps and system
GrapheneOS has a built-in firewall that you can use to block network access to any app on the system.
block trackers
You can do that with DNS services like NextDNS
backup the system
GrapheneOS has a built-in backup solution
When I was talking about “battery charging”, I meant using an app to limit the charging at a certain level: look for “acca” or simple “acc” which is the module/daemon to manage that. You have to be root to do that and there is no way around. For the rest, sure, but that’s for GrapheneOS, I was talking in general, most ROM not having what GrapheneOS has and considering GrapheneOS is exclusively present on Pixel phones unfortunately…
Why is Graphene listed as Google play incompatible? They have far and away the best implementation of google play services if the user chooses to install them.
I think you read the column that says Google Pay compatible. It’s talking about the tap to pay feature you can use with your credit card at merchants, rather than the play store.
Honestly, the tap to pay feature is what’s keeping my from using one of the more privacy oriented ROMs or root. It’s just too convenient.
one little inconvenvience for tonnes better security and privacy. r u possibly able to use a credit card in your phone case instead?
Can’t you do that with a credit card?
I like to keep my credit card in my wallet in a different pocket.
That way if I lose my phone I can use my card and vice versa.
Who doesn’t keep their credit card in a wallet???
what is deblobbed
proprietary blobs removed
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Hardware drivers are binary blobs… Bluetooth driver, Wi-Fi driver, cellular driver etc etc etc
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You can turn off the shutter sound just fine. This can even be done on Japanese Pixels.
https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/7649-camera-shutter-sound-on-pixel-6a-jp-version
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Yap, strcat likely needs some professional help. Still there’s no other ROM that brings that much to the table.
