I love how after all the tankie YouTube videos boasting the “superiority” of Russian arms, the S-400 and S-500, Iskander etc… we finally get to see that the entire Russian military is just vaporware.
More like vaporized ware lmao
I mean, on paper the S-400 and S-500 were very impressive and credibly so
They just didn’t turn out to be that effective in reality.
At least with the air defenses the weakness that was exploited would be common to all air defense systems. It’s a failure of tactics/strategy instead of a technical issue with the system.
The Ukrainians started throwing tons of cheap drones at targets and forced a dilemma: 1) Engage the drones, exhaust the air defense systems’ capabilities, and then the air defense systems get targeted by cruise missiles/air strike or 2) don’t engage as many drones, which lets them reach their targets.
Israel’s vaunted Iron Dome system was also overwhelmed with the sheer amount of relatively cheap rockets from Gaza during the Oct 7th attacks, but obviously Hamas lacks the sophistication to follow that up with attacking the systems themselves.
That’s not what vaporware is…vaporware doesn’t exist, it’s vapor.
Russians lie about a lot, especially their military’s capabilities and they have had plenty of vaporware e.g. T-95.
However…
The S-400 and Iskander are real, they just aren’t as capable as described. The S-400 can’t target stealth aircraft, although it can possibly track 1st gen stealth (track vs target are very different).
The Iskander is a capable ballistic missle with hypersonic speeds…just like ballistic missiles have since the 60s. But it still follows a ballistic trajectory, and is NOT capable of hypersonic maneuvering.
I don’t think that’s entirely fair, the system wasn’t operating at the time of the attack. It does seem to work, it just jams absolutely everything.
Overhyped systems and a combination of “it would be quite effective if someone didn’t sell half its components on the black market”.
How are you supporting nazis and jews at the same time bro?
As much of a win as this is, there are any number of normal battlefield conditions and reasons this could’ve happened, that aren’t just “HAHA RUSSIAN MILITARY DUMB”
- Electronic warfare systems are typically cycled to allow friendly forces to use the spectrums they jam. These schedules are timed by counter-EW teams.
- Missles and bombs often have multiple guidance systems e.g. the GMLRS fired by HIMARS/M270 MLRS both GPS and intertial guidance systems.
- HARM (Anti-radiation missiles) could have been deployed to force the Russians to kill active radar systems of the SAM battery protecting this system.
- Laser guidance from special forces, or local partisan group, could have provided the targeting.
- The story itself could be part of an information or counter-intelligence operation to hide real means and methods used, or trick Russian military/intelligence.
And these are just a few reasons why while this is a win, should probably not be used as confirmation bias to underestimate Russia’s capabilities.
It doesn’t change that “HAHA RUSSIAN MILITARY DUMB” either though.
That’s just not accurate, and honestly, it’s dangerous.
Yes, the Russian military is deeply flawed and at times, comically tragic in its errors, but it’s still a lethal organization that has shown itself capable of learning and adapting.
That attitude is most concerning because the unsaid, but logical next point is, “then why hasn’t Ukraine won? Are they HAHA DUMB as well?”
You may not be thinking that, but that is what pumping that idea out into the ether leads to.
Yes, they have made mind boogling choices at times, but at other times, they’ve shown high levels competence and the ability to change and evolve their tactics, much to the detriment of Ukrainian forces.
Listen when adults speak to you
I do wonder what the impact will be on Russia’s military equipment export business thanks to this war. It’s pretty clear now how inferior their tech is compared to the west.
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That’s been happening since the collapse of the USSR. What we are seeing is a feedback loop.
The over quarter of a million casualties certainly isn’t helping them either
Serbia thanks Russia for it’s brain gain.
If you are a college educated Russian reading this, please consider motivating all in your influence to move to another country that is not the Russian Federation
That sounds like a great way for a college educated Russian to get themselves locked up for decades. The better advice is to just get out without telling anyone you’re planning to.
Terrible morrale, few people supporting the war, the rest forced into this stupid war and with the world donating their war tech to ukraine it would be hard to come out on top
Russia filled a niche of cheaper AND no strings. Their arms exports have collapsed post Ukraine, but that’s also partly because they’ve diverted arms to their own war effort.
China and India have largely picked up the slack, but I believe it’s mostly China.
South Korea has also greatly expanded it’s arms industry in the past decade, especially it’s naval yards, but I think they mostly compete with Western firms.
Well, when anti-GPS and GPS collide, what do you expect?
This guy physics’s
Annihilation?
Was the jammer just a coat hangar, 9v battery, and aluminum tape?
No, but there are actually very low very cost, extremely dangerous and illegal, jammers you can make with not too much more. Basically they just burst shitloads of electrical power into the air that jamm up a surprisingly broad range of nearby RF.
This one cost about £4m to make.
By the time £3.999m has been siphoned off on
bribes and corruptionnecessary overheads, you should be happy with the coathanger and a car battery, comrade.Ok then £4m in the west. This is not a cheap piece of kit. It was a coo for Ukraine to take it out. Comrade. Try to be a bit more informed. There are plenty out there willing to give the information out.
It is mentioned in this video with more detail.
Was making a joke with you, about how much the Russian army loses in corruption and how their prices are not to be believed. Wasn’t having a go at you. Try to be a bit more chill?
You were taking a cheap shot at what you thought was a Russian opinion.
I bet the jammers were unsophisticated enough you could just program the GPS to continue moving in the direction where the over the air noise levels kept increasing.
For all the legitimate criticisms of Russian military, their EW and Counter-EW capabilities are actually world class. Which is why it is a big deal when they’re destroyed, or captured.
Depending on the range at which the signals start to become jammed, it could be possible to navigate solely by IMU for the final leg also.
This is exactly how it was done. The missile used can be set to measurement units and only needs GPS occasionally for precision. It was not relying on GPS totally. Ukraine are not going to waste an expensive GPS guided missile when they know it is going to be blocked near the target.
I’m not sure I follow you. If the missile is using gps for guidance(during at least part of it’s flight), then it is by definition a gps quided rocket is it not?
Also, gps quidance isnt terribly expensive. I use industrial grade units which go for about 3kusd and provide sub-metre accuracy in highly gnss denied enviroments. Lower grade ~3m accuracy units go for around a hundred dollars, and would be completely sufficient for hitting a target the size of a truck.
Yes it was (reputedly) a GPS weapon that took out the jammer. But it was one that had a back up option for when the GPS was being jammed. It did not just rely on one guidance system. I do not in any way shape or form profess to be an expert on these things. I am going from the opinions of those who are looking closely at stuff like this. Denys Davydov gives his opinion on what was used and why.
None of these missiles are cheap. Each one fired has a command structure behind it to make it an effective use of the hardware. Remembering Ukraine is under pressure from the US regarding good use of the funds being sent over. The rocket mentioned in the video was GMLRS Munitions. There are much more expensive options that could have been used, but they would not have been an effective use of the funds. This missile has an estimated cost of $225k. There is more to the missile than a single guidance system.
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The bombs were probably using the encrypted military GPS frequencies that are more resistant to jamming.
Encryption isn’t really a factor with this type of satellite navigation jamming, at least as far as I’m aware.
Frequency hopping however can be a used as a RF jamming countermeasure, but I’m not sure if that is really for satellite navigation systems.
The frequencies all satnav systems work on are also very specific and known. I would assume that any satnav jammers just jam all RF used by all GNSS constellations at once, but maybe they open up certain bands to allow for their own guided munitions at pre-scheduled times.
As another commenter said, I don’t think cryptography is the main problem.
You’ve got to be able to modulate some numbers out of the radio signal first before you need to be concerned if it’s encrypted or not.
GPS signals from power conserving satellites are so weak that I’d imagine that overwhelming them with noise on all frequencies would be the easy answer. (Although there’s a Big Brain hyper-cunning answer to that…).
Some GPS jammers are known to transmit, instead of noise, a bad signal which creates an offset in the timing to calculate a false position. But with encrypted military GPS, that’s not as effective.
I don’t think PGMs with M-Code GPS capabilities are being provided to Ukraine, but that is definitely something well outside of my casual knowledge base, so I’m open to being corrected.
This sounds like a gag from the Roadrunner cartoon.
I want to read that the GPS jammer killed the GPS on the bomb which continued flying in an unintended direction until accidentally hitting the jammer.
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Can’t a GPS jammer be targetted simply by anti-radiation missiles?!
In my ignorance I’m thinking of it as basically a single really powerful emitter in a certain range of frequencies which would really stand out with the appropriate frequency filter, plus it’s not as if there would be any other ground-based emitters around in that range of frequencies as civilians for obvious reasons aren’t supposed to be using devices which emit in that range (receive, sure, but not emit).
Anti-radiation missles targett the high output of the RF spectrum used by radars, not those used by satellite navigation.
A jammer will be a high output RF. The jammers just shout louder than the signals they want to jam to drown them out. This is wideband high gain noise that degrades the signal to noise ratio of the target signals.
Close, but you’re missing the part that RF spectrum is more than just wideband. There’s X band, UHF, UWB, and many many more.
Jammers pick a portion, or portions, of the RF spectrum, and blast it with noise, yes.
But they don’t magically deny every bit all at once.
And radar is different still, especially when you’re talking about SEAD, or radar hunting missiles.
I think the main point is that it’s technically possible to target jammers of any sort based on following the jamming signal itself, but the question is if there are any weapons that do that for arbitrary frequency ranges or if that is currently limited to radar frequencies.
The unsettling part is it doesn’t have to be a jamming signal that is targeted. It’s possible to have a missile target areas with higher 3G activity or even follow a wifi signal to a device, though it would need another method of getting within range. But targeting a signal is easier than communicating with that signal, plus a missile could have a much better receiver than your phone or router.
But can those things not be adjusted to target a different part of the spectrum?!
I mean, in terms of just Electronics a band filter can be changed to have a different center frequency, although there probably are other considerations beyond merelly the frequencies being taken in by the missile controller when switching for targetting radars to targetting jammers.
I was just wondering if the Ukranians (who definitelly seem to have lots of knowhow when it comes to weapon manufaturing) haven’t altered a missile to operate similarly to a HAARM but for other frequencies rather than just the ones used by radars or even if there isn’t already an anti-jammer mode (with a selectable frequency) for existing missiles.
Warning: This is speculation based on my existing knowledge, mostly because I don’t feel like Googling for 5-30min to confirm. But if anything is wrong, please show me a source so I can correct
The AGM-88 HARM isn’t like a cc1111 or some infinite band SDR IC that you can just switch the frequencies on. It literally targets radiation.
SAM Radars pump out shitloads of specific radiation, like cook your steaks and go sterile levels, if you’re too close.
Different radar bands are used for tracking vs targeting, and maybe the HARM has to be toggled between those, or maybe it always tracks both, I don’t know.
Regardless, it’s not designed to just “pick any RF and go boom”. It’s sensor track the high levels of radiation that are specifically emitted by SAM Radars, because it’s designed for SEAD (Suppression Enemy Air Defense).
Maybe newer SEAD missiles have that flexibility, but the HARM is originally 70s era, and that’s what Ukraine has been provided - at least publicly.
Edit: additionally, the HARM has to be mission programmed prior to launch because of the SU retrofits. Unlike on say, an F-16, where it’s fully controllable from within the cockpit to run a variety of missions, make changes mid-sorty, etc.
With the exception of things like Alpha and Beta Radiation (which are respectivelly high energy atoms and neutrons, if I remember it correctly), all “radiation” (from to longwave radio waves, through infrared, visible light, ultraviolet, x-rays and into Gamma radiation) are ust photons with different energy levels hence different frequencies.
So the radiation from radars is just photons within a certain range of frequencies, which is even within what’s considered the radio waves spectrum, same as a normal radio but of different frequencies hence different energy.
Radiation in this case is just used as a technical terminology (because they’re radio waves that radiate from an emitter), same as one might say “microwave radiation” (which, by the way, is also just photon in a different part of the spectrum), rather than implying that it’s the specific radiation from radioactivity.
There are indeed consideration in things like antenna design for different radio frequencies and you can’t just design something that will work equally well for any of the entire range of frequencies. I was actually not thinking that HARMs could be “tuned” to different frequencies but rather than guidance module add-ons could be designed for more generic missiles in order to home in on specific frequencies for targetting jammers, as a jammer needs not be anywhere as complex as a radar and can be little more than a very strong emitter in a specific frequency or narrow range of frequencies which is emitting white noise.
(The idea of a GPS-guided missile with a terminal guidance module that just homes in on the strongest emitter in a certain radiowave frequency range is just delicious. I believe the Ukranians have used things like mobile phone emissions to locate and target Russian troops so they’re at the very least manually doing triangulation of radio emissions)
From my naive knowledge from the side of Electronics it seems it would be reasonably simple to design a directional radiowave detector for what is the equivalent of “a guy shouting really loud to drown all conversation”.
PS: But yeah, beyond all this, your point about specifically the HARM still makes absolute sense.
Let’s try a little thought experiment, or practical if you have the time and money:
First step:
Go buy a Commodore 64 and an RTX-4800
Next step:
Make them work together
Last step:
Find a Soviet 70s/80s era computer (probably a mainframe style) and network it with your Commodore 64 that has an RTX-4800.
You’re suggestion boils down to:
Science says it’s possible, why don’t they just redesign the entire missle?
But, I am just spitballing here. If you are that convinced that this is doable, or even has been done, go do some research.
Your example in highly artificial and uses constraints that are not applicable here: an RTX-4800 interfaces with a computer via a complex protocol called PCI-Express (now in version 4) which is very complex because it had to be designed to pass a lot of data really fast (Gigabits per second) as that was required for the main use case of that board: rendering millions of vertices worth of textured 3D models into a 2D output at least 25 times per seconds (though many people nowadays expect 100 times per second or more).
Something that provides a direction in a 3D space, on the other hand, has to send all of 12 bytes a couple of times per second (if you’re using a double-precision floating point value for each coordinate), so the design of the interface hasn’t been constrained by the need for ultra-high throughtput and can be very simple.
As it so happens, the second part of your example (getting a Soviet 70s/80s era computer to talk with a Commodor 64) is quite likely possible using the Serial protocol.
In fact a more correct version of that example would be to get a Soviet 70s/80s computer to talk to a modern microcontroller - because for any system designed now to interface with older systems one of the sides would always be modern - and that absolutelly is possible as long as that computer has any kind of comms protocol, as even if it doesn’t have Serial (which would be strange, but possible) you can always program a modern microcontroller to bit-bang any protocol that’s not high throughput. (In fact there are tons of projects out there were people interface modern microcontrollers with ancient hardware).
Also we’re talking about something that already receives GSM data from a GSM module, and my experience of working with that kind of electronics (civilian) is that it’s simple digital data via something like Serial.
I agree that are for sure be constraints I am entirelly unware of here (as I have no experience with designing military hardware), but your idea of were they are is, from my own experience desiging electronic systems, not at all in the right area.
Are you just using ChatGPT, or another LLM, to string words and concepts together?
Kinda sounds like you are, at least for significant sections of your responses.
Some parts are just confusing as to why even include them, unless you actually have no idea what they mean, or why they’re not contextually relevant, for example:
GSM? Nope, not a factor…
PCIE - why specify v4?
But, whatever, I’m not a Raytheon engineer. Doesn’t matter if you convice me (you haven’t, but doesn’t matter).
Edit: also, FWIW, Those constraints aren’t artificial. They’re each specific to what you’re suggesting.
Old American tech, retrofitted and repurposed with brand new tech, and then integrated with, and fired from, old Soviet tech.
There is a reason that NATO was only able to integrate fire control to the HARM for the SU’s, and not all of its cockpit control features and capabilities. Which is why they have to preprogrammed for each sortie…
Second best army in Ukraine
Plot twist: the bombs used GLONASS.
Unlikely if it was a US provided munition.
That said, I generally assume that most English language articles use GPS as a stand-in for any GNSS constellation, regardless of which one, or combination of them, was actually used.
Although, there is a reason why the Russian pilots and drivers were photographed using off the shelf Garmin units… much like the rest of their military, GLONAS was a legacy Soviet project that hasn’t been well maintained or updated well post collapse.
That “jammer” was definitely tampered with by the russkies’ corruption and greed.
Tee hee.
To any troll farm workers: ask Putin how Democracy’s dick tastes.
Sounds like those bombs were wasted.
This title confused me, because A-GPS is also a thing.
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