Not just against everything associated with the same label as what you fear.
UBI is a fairly concrete concept, cutting a check to every single person or household. While its implementation has some variants (is it a tax refund or a stimulus? Is it means-tested or means-adjusted?) that’s the heart of what you need to do to be a UBI. I try to envision the BEST possible, or at least best realistic UBI, and that’s what I try to consider. What comes out to me from that are all the concerns I have. Yang’s plan isn’t trying to kill welfare just for reasons of his capitalist ideology, it’s also because he knows his plan is prohibitively expensive. That’s what everything boils down to. I used to be all-in with UBI, but I genuinely have never been able to dial in on a possible UBI plan that’s any better than the society we have now.
Also, don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
This saying doesn’t really apply when so-called Good might be worse than what we have, or harder to implement/maintain than perfect. “Perfect” is downright affordable except for the conservative mindset against “giving people things for free”. The best UBI plan I can imagine is less likely to get votes, more expensive, and less effective than just taking means-testing out of welfare. BOTH are impossible in this climate, but why shoot for “Bad” when it’s 10 miles off the coast of “Perfect”?
But you say you see something in UBI. I want to see it, too. That’s why I’m asking about it.
UBI would represent a great advancement for the working class.
It should be plain.
My whole point for the last 20 comments has been specific, detailed reasons why I think it’s not an advancement for the working class. Is there any reason you won’t address them? If it were plain, there should be answers to my criticisms.
Fighting makes a stronger contribution than analyzing details that are currently only hypothetical.
So how often do you fight for things you think are harmful? Why should the Left be flocking to a plan like UBI, one that is often seen as a “centrist compromise” between welfare and laissez faire capitalism? In the US at least, we’re already further to the Left than UBI in many ways, and the working class have better than UBI (even if there’s miles to go to proper socialized welfare).
Your objections were against details that are narrow, undetermined, or hypothetical.
I declined to address your objections on their merits, because I find in them no merit.
The solution to a car not having any wheels is applying wheels, not lamenting that all cars are dysfunctional because none may ever have wheels.
The constructive response to any problem is addressing it at the time it occurs, not obsessing over it while also refusing to begin any action.
Workers who have little income gaining more income, or workers who have precarious income gaining secure income, is obviously not harmful, yet you seem determined to fixate on some particular scenario that makes you feel threatened.
Workers need income to survive. UBI helps ensure security for everyone.
Your objections were against details that are narrow, undetermined, or hypothetical.
I declined to address your objections on their merits, because I find in them no merit.
So the majority are too stupid and unworthy to get explanations, and evidence/studies don’t matter? I mean, these are not contrived or uneducated objections.
The solution to a car not having any wheels is applying wheels, not lamenting that all cars are dysfunctional because none may ever have wheels.
A car with only 1 wheel isn’t going anywhere, and there’s no UBI out there offering to give even 2 wheels. But I specifically named plans that come "all-4-wheels-included’ and your response was to insult me as “narrow, undetermined, or hypothetical” with “no merit”.
The constructive response to any problem is addressing it when it occurs, not obsessing over it while also refusing to begin any constructive action.
So you’re saying we need to run blindly to the Right when the Left already has proven answers? Why? Capitalism is the problem. Cutting everyone a check in capitalism is still capitalism.
Workers who have little income having more income, or workers who have precarious income having secure income
So pay them a living wage not to work (no-questions-asked unemployment) and let their stability leverage better wages. That’ll actually work and cost less than what you’re suggesting.
is obviously not harmful
Your use of “obviously” is bad-faith. My whole argument is that blindly cutting a not-nearly-enough check for everyone is “obviously” quite harmful, just like Bush’s tax cuts were.
yet you seem determined to fixate on some particular scenario that makes you feel threatened.
I don’t feel threatened. As upper-middle-class I personally do better under UBI than I would under any full-socialization of resources. I don’t care because I have no problem with getting passed over for aid if it’s going to those who really need it. I don’t want a $1000 “Make Welfare Conservative Again” check.
Workers need income to survived. UBI helps ensure security for everyone.
Or we can just put wheels on that car and ensure that everyone can survive with or without income. Instead of feeding the alt-right machine.
I’d like to reiterate (not that you read my replies) that my whole point is that you’re trying to fix a solved problem with an untested capitalist answer that, at best, is 1/2 as good as the solutions we already know will work and for 5x the price.
And it looks like you have no desire to let all of those on the Left who think UBI is the wrong tool know why we should reconsider. That’s all I’ve been trying to do, give you that opportunity.
EDIT: Is there anyone ELSE reading this who would be willing to give a good reason why a SocDem or socialist should support UBI instead of just be confrontational? I used to love the idea of it, but I’m really sold on it being the wrong tool of late, and I have to be honest that Yang was a big part of my reasoning for feeling this way.
For purposes of resolving that UBI helps the working class, your objections are not germane.
I disagree.
Everyone having some income and especially adequate food is better than some having none.
That’s like saying “everyone having a Ford F150 is better than some having none”, but money is just bloody paper. Nobody is eating a dollar bill. So no. Everyone having some income is NOT better than some having no income but everyone having a home, food, and healthcare. It IS an either/or choice according to every serious UBI advocate. SHOW me a plan with a non-trivial UBI that also expands welfare, and then we’ll talk.
It should be extremely uncomplicated.
Then demonstrate it with uncomplicated facts instead of treating my objections as if only a moron would make them. If you treat the Left like morons, you’ll never get further than Lemmy comments.
After all this time of you showing non-stop arrogance towards my views, I’ve continued to treat you with respect and try to coax the actual logical basis of what you’re trying to push for. At what point do I just give up and conclude that I was right, that you don’t actually know much about UBI at all?
I do. EBT, rent-coverage, healthcare for all.
UBI is a fairly concrete concept, cutting a check to every single person or household. While its implementation has some variants (is it a tax refund or a stimulus? Is it means-tested or means-adjusted?) that’s the heart of what you need to do to be a UBI. I try to envision the BEST possible, or at least best realistic UBI, and that’s what I try to consider. What comes out to me from that are all the concerns I have. Yang’s plan isn’t trying to kill welfare just for reasons of his capitalist ideology, it’s also because he knows his plan is prohibitively expensive. That’s what everything boils down to. I used to be all-in with UBI, but I genuinely have never been able to dial in on a possible UBI plan that’s any better than the society we have now.
This saying doesn’t really apply when so-called Good might be worse than what we have, or harder to implement/maintain than perfect. “Perfect” is downright affordable except for the conservative mindset against “giving people things for free”. The best UBI plan I can imagine is less likely to get votes, more expensive, and less effective than just taking means-testing out of welfare. BOTH are impossible in this climate, but why shoot for “Bad” when it’s 10 miles off the coast of “Perfect”?
But you say you see something in UBI. I want to see it, too. That’s why I’m asking about it.
It is concrete, as I explained, but you were writing mountains of text trying to make it obscure.
Keep fighting for advances, for greater power and deeper unity for the working class.
Emphasize the opportunities for today above the vision for tomorrow or the fears for next year.
Not really.
And not for UBI. I think we’re on the same page, then.
Well this discussion was about something that won’t happen today or tomorrow, so focusing on today seemed silly.
UBI would represent a great advancement for the working class.
It should be plain.
Also plain is that it will only be achieved through struggle.
Fighting makes a stronger contribution than analyzing details that are currently only hypothetical.
My whole point for the last 20 comments has been specific, detailed reasons why I think it’s not an advancement for the working class. Is there any reason you won’t address them? If it were plain, there should be answers to my criticisms.
So how often do you fight for things you think are harmful? Why should the Left be flocking to a plan like UBI, one that is often seen as a “centrist compromise” between welfare and laissez faire capitalism? In the US at least, we’re already further to the Left than UBI in many ways, and the working class have better than UBI (even if there’s miles to go to proper socialized welfare).
Your objections were against details that are narrow, undetermined, or hypothetical.
I declined to address your objections on their merits, because I find in them no merit.
The solution to a car not having any wheels is applying wheels, not lamenting that all cars are dysfunctional because none may ever have wheels.
The constructive response to any problem is addressing it at the time it occurs, not obsessing over it while also refusing to begin any action.
Workers who have little income gaining more income, or workers who have precarious income gaining secure income, is obviously not harmful, yet you seem determined to fixate on some particular scenario that makes you feel threatened.
Workers need income to survive. UBI helps ensure security for everyone.
So the majority are too stupid and unworthy to get explanations, and evidence/studies don’t matter? I mean, these are not contrived or uneducated objections.
A car with only 1 wheel isn’t going anywhere, and there’s no UBI out there offering to give even 2 wheels. But I specifically named plans that come "all-4-wheels-included’ and your response was to insult me as “narrow, undetermined, or hypothetical” with “no merit”.
So you’re saying we need to run blindly to the Right when the Left already has proven answers? Why? Capitalism is the problem. Cutting everyone a check in capitalism is still capitalism.
So pay them a living wage not to work (no-questions-asked unemployment) and let their stability leverage better wages. That’ll actually work and cost less than what you’re suggesting.
Your use of “obviously” is bad-faith. My whole argument is that blindly cutting a not-nearly-enough check for everyone is “obviously” quite harmful, just like Bush’s tax cuts were.
I don’t feel threatened. As upper-middle-class I personally do better under UBI than I would under any full-socialization of resources. I don’t care because I have no problem with getting passed over for aid if it’s going to those who really need it. I don’t want a $1000 “Make Welfare Conservative Again” check.
Or we can just put wheels on that car and ensure that everyone can survive with or without income. Instead of feeding the alt-right machine.
I’d like to reiterate (not that you read my replies) that my whole point is that you’re trying to fix a solved problem with an untested capitalist answer that, at best, is 1/2 as good as the solutions we already know will work and for 5x the price.
And it looks like you have no desire to let all of those on the Left who think UBI is the wrong tool know why we should reconsider. That’s all I’ve been trying to do, give you that opportunity.
EDIT: Is there anyone ELSE reading this who would be willing to give a good reason why a SocDem or socialist should support UBI instead of just be confrontational? I used to love the idea of it, but I’m really sold on it being the wrong tool of late, and I have to be honest that Yang was a big part of my reasoning for feeling this way.
For purposes of resolving that UBI helps the working class, your objections are not germane.
Everyone having some income and especially adequate food is better than some having none.
It should be extremely uncomplicated.
I disagree.
That’s like saying “everyone having a Ford F150 is better than some having none”, but money is just bloody paper. Nobody is eating a dollar bill. So no. Everyone having some income is NOT better than some having no income but everyone having a home, food, and healthcare. It IS an either/or choice according to every serious UBI advocate. SHOW me a plan with a non-trivial UBI that also expands welfare, and then we’ll talk.
Then demonstrate it with uncomplicated facts instead of treating my objections as if only a moron would make them. If you treat the Left like morons, you’ll never get further than Lemmy comments.
After all this time of you showing non-stop arrogance towards my views, I’ve continued to treat you with respect and try to coax the actual logical basis of what you’re trying to push for. At what point do I just give up and conclude that I was right, that you don’t actually know much about UBI at all?