Estonia considers itself a front-line state, a Nato member where its border guards stare across the Narva River at the Russian fortress of Ivangorod.

This tiny Baltic state, once a part of the Soviet Union, is convinced that once the fighting stops in Ukraine, President Vladimir Putin will turn his attention to the Baltics, looking to bring countries like Estonia back under Moscow’s control.

To help stave off that possibility, Estonia’s government has poured money and weapons into Ukraine’s war effort, donating more than 1% of its GDP to Kyiv.

  • @[email protected]English
    0•29 days ago

    Well, we can also look at precedent. Article 5 was applied only once in NATO’s history, despite multiple other occasions where NATO could have done so. I do think that a deliberate Russian attack on a NATO member would trigger a response, but history shows it clearly isn’t mandatory.

    • @nahuseEnglish
      1•29 days ago

      When has there been an attack on a member state that has not resulted in support of some kind from the alliance?

      • @[email protected]English
        0•28 days ago

        You tell me, you’re the one who says Article 5 is a guarantee. It has been used only once (9/11)

        • @nahuseEnglish
          1•28 days ago

          No? The burden is on you here to assert your point, after your first point was incorrect and you moved the goalpost.

          You’re the one that says we should turn to precedent, and said there have been multiple occasions NATO could have triggered Article 5 but wasn’t. When were these other times? You made the statement, now provide evidence.

          My point is that when it’s triggered, it’s not optional. And so far, that’s been the case, since it’s been triggered exactly once, and there was a universal response to it.

          It’s not an option to respond, according to the words of the treaty. Any other interpretation of it would be based on politics, not the interpretation of the treaty itself. Any idea that the treaty doesn’t mandate collective action is incorrect.

          • @[email protected]English
            0•28 days ago

            You’re the one that says we should turn to precedent, and said there have been multiple occasions NATO could have triggered Article 5 but wasn’t. When were these other times? You made the statement, now provide evidence.

            I’m sure I’m missing some, but:

            • Soviet blockade of Berlin
            • Argentine attack on the Falklands
            • Iraqi attacks on Turkey
            • Syrian attacks on Turkey
            • Russian missile landing in Poland last year
            • @nahuseEnglish
              1•28 days ago

              … and was Article 5 triggered any of those times? Did any of those states ask for help from the alliance? And most of those examples have drawn support (or offers of support) from NATO allies.

              You’re also missing the geographical scope of the treaty, which over and over again refers to the security situation in North America and Europe.

              Or are you understanding what I’m saying as making it mandatory if anything happens to these countries, and the country being attacked doesn’t get a say in the matter? Because a country try still needs to actually ask for help.

              In (as far as I’m aware) every single security treaty in effect across the world the first responsibility lies with the states in question, and all assistance has to be requested by those states.

              Listen. You’re just incorrect, and that’s ok. But in the scope of the treaty (which, yes, must actually be triggered), a response from all member states is mandatory.

              • @[email protected]English
                0•28 days ago

                … and was Article 5 triggered any of those times?

                No, which is my point. Allow myself to quote… myself:

                Well, we can also look at precedent. Article 5 was applied only once in NATO’s history, despite multiple other occasions where NATO could have done so.

                As for your other line of thought:

                in the scope of the treaty (which, yes, must actually be triggered), a response from all member states is mandatory.

                This is also demonstrably incorrect. If we look at the single time Article 5 was triggered, 9/11, the response was not all-in. The largest-scale combined effort I think was patrols in the Mediterranean.

                • @nahuseEnglish
                  1•28 days ago

                  This suggests a complete misunderstanding of international law and state sovereignty, then. I was being overly charitable, apparently.

                  Sovereignty is a concept that is baked into the UN Charter explicitly, which the NATO treaty names over and over again.

                  In order for a treaty article to take effect, it has to be triggered by a member state. It’s strange that you would interpret mandatory response as being, potentially, against the actual request of the state(s) in question.

                  It seems either painfully lacking knowledge or as being in bad faith. In either case I would suggest you refrain from talking about international treaties in the future.

                  • @[email protected]English
                    0•28 days ago

                    You perhaps missed the second part of my reply about the post-9/11 response. If I understand what you’ve been trying to say here, you’re implying that all NATO members must participate after Article 5 is invoked, which is not the case.