cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/11819804
The trend in western Europe is banks are pulling out of the ATM business and joining consortiums. Then those consortiums deploy much fewer ATMs than the banks had. And they monopolise. If one or two ATM brands reject your card, you may be fucked if it’s a small city, as I recently experienced.
ATM alternatives are becoming increasingly essential due to ATM enshitification & sparcity. Some shops give cash back, where you have more money pulled from your bank and the cashier gives you cash from the register. The US has always been on-the-ball with cash back, even though the ATMs in the US are not the shit-show that we see in Europe lately.
So it’s easy to find cash back options in the US because there are several compiled lists showing various stores and limits, like this. Some shops have a fee and some not and the range of limits vary wildly. But at least there are published options.
I’m struggling to find information like that in Europe. In part this is because “cash back” is an overloaded term that also means rebate deals (like discounts of ~1—5%), so search results are polluted. It’s bizarre there is so little info about this. So many people have become cashless that hardly anyone even notices the shit show that ATMs have become. Hence low demand for info on cash back options.
Cash back can be interesting for foreign card holders in Europe because they avoid ATM fees. Discovercard/Diner’s Club seems to guarantee no cash back fee and at the same time no currency exchange markup. But the data on cashback in Europe is sparse and inconsistent from one country to the next.
- Norway shops offering cash back refuse non-Norwegian cards.
- UK stores require no purchase and have no fee, but they also discriminate against non-local bank cards.
- Denmark: local cards only, credit cards refused.
- Spain: no cash back service (but that article is 10 yrs old).
- Netherlands: rumour is that Albert Heijn, SPAR, and Smullers have cash back. (SPAR advertises cashback on their UK site with a locator because apparently only some locations offer it. Yet they wholly conceal this option from their Dutch website)
- Belgium: Aldi has it. But if you boycott Israel then you boycott Aldi North (all Belgian Aldis are Aldi North)
Mastercard has a “cashback store locator” on their US website. And apparently that db is only populated with US stores. Which is a bit shitty because MC is global and they should have that information.
I’m not getting why shops are non-transparent about this. Presumably they offer cash back potentially fee-free because they profit from whatever you’re buying. It would work on me… if I have some confidence that I can get €200 cash back at a store, that store is sure to get my business.
Anyway, please feel free to use this thread to crowdsource cashback info.
Which is why I specifically said it wasn’t a solution for tourists, but for expats/immigrants/exchange students/whatever. IF you’re one of those, you probably already have a BSN, which means you can have a bank card in 2 days if you have a RFID passport and a phone.
If you’re a tourist, this “problem” is likely a very, very time-limited issue, and if you really wanted cash, you could have exchanged it at home.
My point is, this isn’t enshittification, things are hugely better than they were just 10 or 20 or god forbid 30 years ago. There are plenty of options, from paying in stores, to google/apple pay, to exchanging cash like it’s 1972. Both my real-life American friends have zero issues in stores or at ATMs with their US cards, though both also have a Dutch bank account, since they do live here longterm. It really seems that this is a very you-problem, and you’ve decided you want a solution that doesn’t look like it’s going to happen here.
If anything, quite the opposite is happening: more no-cash stores are appearing. Hell, most people I know only carry cash for emergencies and presents.
The government seems to require that every Dutch person must have access to a Geldmaat machine within 5km.
Victim blame is really fucked up here. ATMs are violating the GDPR by making use of undisclosed automatic decision making. Only pushovers blindly accept that the ATM is serving them well when some AI algo decides you are not profitable, or whatever… we actually don’t even get the benefit of knowing what that non-transparent algo is basing its decisions on. It’s really a dick move to then say to those rejected by that AI processing are themselves the problem. People rejected by that machine aren’t even told what they need to do to not be rejected.
You’re not paying attention. The fix exists: shops like SPAR and Aldi give cashback. The purpose of the thread is to crowdsource information that is undisclosed. It’s unclear exactly which SPAR locations outside UK supports cashback, and who else does. In this shitshow of a hunt for criminals causing collateral damage to lawful citizens, we need options. And we need them documented.
You can exchange money at home. You can exchange money at your destination. You can pay by debitcard. You can pay by creditcard. You can withdraw by creditcard. You can use a third-party like google or apple pay.
There are just a handful of possible options. You’re the one rejecting them because you want your single hyper-specific option to ALSO apply universally, when I’ve pretty clearly explained why it’s not at all universal. Meanwhile, you’re shouting things have gotten much worse, when they clearly haven’t: lots of people have none of the issues you describe, and options exist today that we couldn’t even dream about 10 years ago.
You’re pretending someone is personally attacking you, but all I really see is a problem of your own creation. Maybe it’s (slightly) out of your control by being limited by banks at home, but since you must take multiple vacations in Europe from the US for this to be such a critical issue, I imagine that problem can also be solved.
Clearly they have. Ten years ago when an ATM tells you to fuck off, you could just walk a block or two down the street to an ATM by a different operator. That choice was taken away from us in the past few years. And it’s getting worse. Independent ATMs are getting boarded up and mothballed. The trend of banks leaving the ATM business and consolidating into a monopoly is spreading. We have lost ATM diversity and competition. And there are fewer of them. If you are in a small city with only Geldmaats and Geldmaat decides to marginalise you, you’re fucked. That was not a problem 10 yrs ago.
It’s unclear how you are not grasping that fewer options means less autonomy. Fewer players implies power imbalance. Monopolies are a bad idea in general not just because power becomes centralised but also because our data becomes centralised and consequently centrally vulnerable along with being exposed to centralised mishandling.
Yes, there are fewer, or no, bank-specific ATMs in the Netherlands than in 2015. There are more methods of payment or ways to get goods and services than in 2015.
Is that less or more? In 2015 I couldn’t order groceries online, pay by banktranfer from my foreign account and have them delivered. I couldn’t use prepaid cards in 2015, it’s no problem today. Those are at least two whole new options that apply to everyone.
So yes, you don’t have 4 different brands of ATMs in the same town anymore. For Dutch people, that doesn’t matter at all, since to them, all those machines were exactly the same for many years, since that was already legally mandated anyway. That’s why you almost never saw the common US sight of several ATMs in a row, that hasn’t been a thing here for decades. I’m not fully sure on what rates different banks used to charge foreign accounts, maybe that was different.
I’m just really curious what the underlying problem is for you. Because I don’t believe you went to the Netherlands and starved, you clearly could pay for things. But for some reason, you have a burning need to implement one specific solution (cashback) in favour of all the others.
Why? What is the core of your issue?
You can have all the smartphone frills you want. QR codes, apps, NFC, … all useless to those who grok privacy. All the privacy-naive cashless options are rich for sure. There is no shortage of innovations to get your data. But when you break ATMs, you break privacy. All these bullshit options do not serve as a replacement for people who are not privacy-naive.
This is a common theme in your messaging… that it’s okay to marginalise demographics of people you are not in… that it’s their problem for not being in your marginalisation-free demographic.
Different banks have different partnership agreements with US banking networks. I’m sure it’s a shit show now that competition is gone. Some US banks simply eat the ATM fee for their customers and some do not. It’s another loss of options. Some people probably have to start paying a fee once their bank’s partnership with SNS (for example) becomes useless.
It’s all about getting cash because electronic payment cannot replace cash from a privacy standpoint. I expect to pay cash for alcohol and marijuana. I also expect to pay cash for everything else because privacy matters. You can name off all the fancy new electronic options you want – they do not replace cash. Cash is how Wikileaks survived when the banks blocked payments to them. Not even cryptocurrency can replace cash (though it comes the closest to being a viable alternative). Anonymous prepaid cards don’t likely exist in Netherlands, and they are not likely as free as cash transactions and would at least have the waste of expiration and unspent funds. So still lousy compared to decentralised ATMs that work.
Trading one good option for a dozen shitty inferior options that tie you to electronic records and limit your control is a poor trade-off. It’s clearly worse than it was 2015.
I said it was unlikely to change, because there’s little profit in catering to such the niche crowd of cash-only tourists with incompatible cards who also didn’t think to pick up foreign cash at home.
Also, not offering a specific service to anyone isn’t “marginalizing”. I don’t marginalize black people by not cutting their hair, because I don’t cut anyone’s hair…
Seems like the US bank should make a new partnership then? It’s weird you place the onus of this entirely on the destination bank instead of your own.
Well no, it’s not all about getting cash. Or at least, that’s not the message you’ve been sending, from all your exceptions and problems.
It’s about getting cash while on vacation (no long-term stay) without traveling to a specific foreign exchange machine/office (has to be within the small town you’re staying in) or bringing foreign currency from home (something you didn’t respond to), while refusing to switch away from a US bank that apparently doesn’t work anywhere in Europe (from your list of countries, and the fact that it works fine for others), preferably for free.
So yeah, even within your cash-only requirement, you’re being pretty demanding.
^ this is a stark good example of endorsement of marginalisation. You identify a group as “niche” and say it’s okay to fuck them over because they are a minority.
What an absurd attempt to declare ATMs redundant. You cannot just walk through the airport with €10k and expect no problems or questions asked. You cannot carry that around with you and claim you have the same security than if don’t. Some will go as far as to only use ATMs inside casinos because they rightfully have concern for security just along the road between the casino and external ATM.
Of course it is. Discriminating against a demographic of people is obviously marginalisation.
This is a fallacy of bad analogy. If you don’t cut anyone’s hair you are not faced with treating different hair clients differently. Unlike ATMs which are treating different demographics of people differently.
It’s weird to rationalise the consequences of elimination of competition as something other than antitrust, and then misplace the onus on consumers and external banks who are the ones disadvantaged by the loss of competition as if there is no cost to that. It’s somewhat like another manifestation of victim blame. The power imbalance inherently makes negotiation unfavorable for those burdened by the monopoly. It also intensifies the damage done by the monopoly. If all banks negotiate a deal with Geldmaat, Geldmaat’s sparse competition (which only exists in some cities but not others) is not interesting for foreign banks to negotiate with.
Of course it is. The problem is for me to define and describe. And I have described a problem increasingly broken cash retrieval infrastructure. You saying “use a card” is absolutely not relevant to the problem. It’s an attempt to undermine the discussion of the problem as described.
It does not matter how long the stay is. ATM monopoly X treats people Y poorly no matter how long they are visiting.
Don’t try to muddy the waters because you’ve failed to defend the increasing enshitification of the status quo. FX offices are a different service with different costs serving a different workflow and cannot replace ATMs because they rely on assumptions about the sending bank that ATMs do not. Not to mention hours of operation and availability differences.
That doesn’t need a response because it fails to replace ATMs. That option always existed independent from ATMs and still remains less popular than ATMs for countless reasons. To suggest OTC cash exchange is to disregard fees and various offerings by different banks. A bank with zero markup exchange on their card at an ATM will not typically give you that zero markup when you appear in person with cash.