Stats in countries where wealth distribution is less of an issue prove otherwise, the only way you’re making people have more babies is by getting rid of women rights, I don’t feel like pulling up all the numbers again but it’s the second time I’m having to correct the “if people had more money they would have more kids” theory on Lemmy.
The second the pill becomes legal birthrate drops, the second abortion becomes legal birthrate drops, the second women start working birthrate drops. So do you want these things to become illegal again?
Finland was under population renewal rate in the early 1900s. At the moment in rich countries the people who have the most kids are those with the lowest income because it means they don’t have access to preventive means, they would stop having kids if they could afford it. Developing countries see their birthrate go down the richer they get as well.
If we go back a little further we see a much bigger fall in birthrate before women’s rights. Without looking too deeply one could argue it’s related to the process of industrialisation.
Here’s the same chart for the USA. One very fair argument is that the fall in child mortality means you don’t need to have as many children to replace the ones that died.
You’ve completely changed your comment so now my first reply doesn’t make sense.
That drop coincides with what? Women going to work, which is a form of women right. Do you want to prevent women from working?
You can also see it reached a floor then started dropping again when women acquired more rights even before life started becoming unaffordable (as can be seen in my Canadian graphics as well).
Also, look at birthrate in Scandinavian countries where wealth is much better distributed and social programs are plentiful. Hell, in Canada itself the province of Quebec has the best social programs for parents and birthrate is one of the lowest.
People are oversimplifying the question because they’re mad at the current economic situation and they like to pretend that it’s the only reason they don’t want a family, but if we look at the whole portrait it’s clear that the question is much more complex than that.
Again, that ignores the fact that rich people (who don’t have to work) have less kids and that’s been the case for ages, it just so happens that rich women have access to education and contraceptives and that’s been the case for over a hundred years.
That’s GDP of the country, and is not related to the number of children born to parents who don’t have to work. It states that rich countries have a lower birth rate.
ignores the fact that rich people (who don’t have to work) have less kids
I never suggested it’s a good idea to reduce women rights, I’m saying that the reason birthrate was higher in the past and is higher in some places at the moment is because women didn’t/don’t have rights, it has nothing to do with income.
Also, about your first point, I already covered that when I mentioned that those who are poor tend to have more kids than those who have the means to easily afford to have them. Hell, poor people have more kids than rich people who could stop working.
It’s not about money or access to child care or social programs, it’s about choice. When they’re given the choice the vast majority of people don’t want a family big enough for the population to renew itself, you’ll find exceptions (I’ve got two colleagues who have four children each) but the average will still be under 2.1 if people can easily prevent unwanted pregnancies. There’s nothing new to it either as I showed and if you look at historical data in first world country it’s always the same pattern (no matter the quantity of social programs to help parents or the amount of parental leaves that they get) and we’re seeing that pattern repeat itself in developing countries.
Maybe that is the “Great Filter” that will end our society but I don’t think anyone has entirely demonstrated that. up to now higher birth rate is related to women specifically not having choices or high infant mortality, but that doesn’t mean we need to go back to that nor that those are the only possibilities
Many people do want kids, so if we as a society want to encourage more children, we need to make that choice easier rather than more difficult. We need to support those people and their choices. We all need to take responsibility for all of our future. It does “take a village” and our society needs to find a way to recreate that and still respect human rights, for the sake of all of our future
Again, people are acting like the USA is the only country that exists and ignoring all other States where having kids is much easier and where the birthrate is the same or lower.
US is at 1.66, Finland at 1.46. Finland offers much better social services and safety nets and socioeconomic equality than the USA, it also means women with more education, better access to abortion (even though the number of abortions is decreasing because they’re not necessary in the first place if people have access to contraceptives, which they do in Finland), better access to a profession…
The more equal women are to men, the less kids they have… and I mean, why would people expect anything else? They’re the ones who take care of the majority of the tasks related to raising children, given the choice they would rather have the same quality of life as men and get to do stuff for themselves instead of living for someone else!
Stats in countries where wealth distribution is less of an issue prove otherwise, the only way you’re making people have more babies is by getting rid of women rights, I don’t feel like pulling up all the numbers again but it’s the second time I’m having to correct the “if people had more money they would have more kids” theory on Lemmy.
The second the pill becomes legal birthrate drops, the second abortion becomes legal birthrate drops, the second women start working birthrate drops. So do you want these things to become illegal again?
Finland was under population renewal rate in the early 1900s. At the moment in rich countries the people who have the most kids are those with the lowest income because it means they don’t have access to preventive means, they would stop having kids if they could afford it. Developing countries see their birthrate go down the richer they get as well.
I’ll share that one because it’s easy to find:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1037268/crude-birth-rate-uk-1800-2020/
If we go back a little further we see a much bigger fall in birthrate before women’s rights. Without looking too deeply one could argue it’s related to the process of industrialisation.
https://localhistories.org/a-timeline-of-womens-rights-uk/
Here’s the same chart for the USA. One very fair argument is that the fall in child mortality means you don’t need to have as many children to replace the ones that died.
You’ve completely changed your comment so now my first reply doesn’t make sense.
That drop coincides with what? Women going to work, which is a form of women right. Do you want to prevent women from working?
You can also see it reached a floor then started dropping again when women acquired more rights even before life started becoming unaffordable (as can be seen in my Canadian graphics as well).
Also, look at birthrate in Scandinavian countries where wealth is much better distributed and social programs are plentiful. Hell, in Canada itself the province of Quebec has the best social programs for parents and birthrate is one of the lowest.
People are oversimplifying the question because they’re mad at the current economic situation and they like to pretend that it’s the only reason they don’t want a family, but if we look at the whole portrait it’s clear that the question is much more complex than that.
Yep, sorry! I did change the comment.
Why did women go to work, was it so they could buy more things, to support their family … I don’t know.
Perhaps it offered a better life then living off the land.
Women would have worked in the home before having the ‘right’ to work in a factory…
Again, that ignores the fact that rich people (who don’t have to work) have less kids and that’s been the case for ages, it just so happens that rich women have access to education and contraceptives and that’s been the case for over a hundred years.
You’d have to provide some data about not having to work and birthrates. According to table 2, by far the largest proportion of births is to those who are unclassified. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/articles/anoteonchildbearingbysocioeconomicstatusandcountryofbirthofmother/2016#births-by-socio-economic-status-and-age-of-mothers
However it doesn’t distinguish between being wealthy, on benefits or perhaps being a student!
This paper suggests that a fall in birth rate amongst wealthier people coincides with the industrial revolution. https://www.jstor.org/stable/44289704?seq=1
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
It’s a very well known and studied phenomenon.
That’s GDP of the country, and is not related to the number of children born to parents who don’t have to work. It states that rich countries have a lower birth rate.
Do you think multimillionaires have to work and that people who make under 25k don’t?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/
I never suggested it’s a good idea to reduce women rights, I’m saying that the reason birthrate was higher in the past and is higher in some places at the moment is because women didn’t/don’t have rights, it has nothing to do with income.
Also, about your first point, I already covered that when I mentioned that those who are poor tend to have more kids than those who have the means to easily afford to have them. Hell, poor people have more kids than rich people who could stop working.
It’s not about money or access to child care or social programs, it’s about choice. When they’re given the choice the vast majority of people don’t want a family big enough for the population to renew itself, you’ll find exceptions (I’ve got two colleagues who have four children each) but the average will still be under 2.1 if people can easily prevent unwanted pregnancies. There’s nothing new to it either as I showed and if you look at historical data in first world country it’s always the same pattern (no matter the quantity of social programs to help parents or the amount of parental leaves that they get) and we’re seeing that pattern repeat itself in developing countries.
People just don’t want kids if they can help it.
Maybe that is the “Great Filter” that will end our society but I don’t think anyone has entirely demonstrated that. up to now higher birth rate is related to women specifically not having choices or high infant mortality, but that doesn’t mean we need to go back to that nor that those are the only possibilities
Many people do want kids, so if we as a society want to encourage more children, we need to make that choice easier rather than more difficult. We need to support those people and their choices. We all need to take responsibility for all of our future. It does “take a village” and our society needs to find a way to recreate that and still respect human rights, for the sake of all of our future
Again, people are acting like the USA is the only country that exists and ignoring all other States where having kids is much easier and where the birthrate is the same or lower.
US is at 1.66, Finland at 1.46. Finland offers much better social services and safety nets and socioeconomic equality than the USA, it also means women with more education, better access to abortion (even though the number of abortions is decreasing because they’re not necessary in the first place if people have access to contraceptives, which they do in Finland), better access to a profession…
The more equal women are to men, the less kids they have… and I mean, why would people expect anything else? They’re the ones who take care of the majority of the tasks related to raising children, given the choice they would rather have the same quality of life as men and get to do stuff for themselves instead of living for someone else!
Great! Seems like you have good ideas for next steps!
Yep, and people are already doing it including me, stop having kids.
Perhaps, or people think more before having kids (also contraception makes it easier to prevent pregnancy in the first place)