• ArbitraryValue
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    20 days ago

    I think you know much more about the legendarium than I do, but I want to nitpick one point:

    Also, there were no more than 3 or 7 balrogs ever according to later writings by Tolkien, which indicates that no balrog was weak or cowardly.

    I think I should have phrased what I said differently. No balrog was weak or cowardly in an absolute sense. Durin’s Bane attacked and defeated all the dwarves of Khazad Dum at the height of their power. It wasn’t initially afraid of Gandalf. However, Ungoliant was another matter. She had consumed the light of the Two Trees and overcome Melkor himself. She might also have been capable of doing something far worse to a Maia than destroying its body and banishing its spirit. I think that though the balrogs were able to drive her away, their victory was not inevitable and I can imagine even a balrog faltering when called to face such a foe.

    • WillBalls@lemmy.world
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      19 days ago

      That’s a really interesting point. Ungoliant kind of exists outside the established power structure of the Ainur, considering she came from outside Arda, but was never mentioned as participating in the first music of the Ainur (there’s no real established origin for Ungoliant, other than “evil spirit from outside the bounds of Arda”). No matter who you are, being called to fight “unknowable ancient Eldritch spider deity” is a pretty horrifying task, and Melkor was even known to have fear when facing much smaller enemies.

      One interesting point is how much emphasis Tolkien puts on Ungoliant’s powers being focused around darkness and “unlight”. Balrogs, being spirits of fire, seem like a natural enemy to a creature of pure darkness, so that might have boosted their comparative power against Ungoliant despite their low numbers.

      Another thing to consider is that Melkor was never known to show understanding or mercy to his servants who failed him. I would have to think that any balrog who failed to come to his aid would have been killed (or worse as you postulate) as soon as Morgoth was freed.

      • ArbitraryValue
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        19 days ago

        Another thing to consider is that Melkor was never known to show understanding or mercy to his servants who failed him. I would have to think that any balrog who failed to come to his aid would have been killed (or worse as you postulate) as soon as Morgoth was freed.

        Hah, now I’m imagining an alternate, sillier Arda where the balrogs had the same conversation as the villain’s abused lackeys did at the end of Disney’s Hercules. (A really underappreciated movie, IMO. Just don’t watch it expecting it to be about the Greek myth.)

        He’s not going to be happy when he gets out of there.

        You mean if he gets out of there!

        If. If is good…

      • ditty@lemm.ee
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        19 days ago

        Balrogs, being spirits of fire, seem like a natural enemy to a creature of pure darkness

        If memory serves I believe Balrogs are beings of fire, shadow, and darkness. I thought their “wings” were a mix of fire and smoke that they exuded and which Tolkien described as them being cloaked in it.

        • WillBalls@lemmy.world
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          19 days ago

          The balrogs were fire maia that were corrupted by Melkor into beings of fire cloaked in shadow. I interpret that to mean they’re primarily beings of fire that “wear” shadow over themselves (which composes their wings)