It was the best of its trilogy and most criticism is complete nonsense, but it still wasn’t a great movie. An anti-war deconstruction of Star Wars got made into an actual Star Wars. And that was probably fantastic at one point, but the edit we got was soured by obvious corporate meddling - like the ‘whoops, nevermind’ ending.
Three simple things would’ve saved it.
One, end the Rey / Kylo story immediately after their fight together. ‘Join me.’ Tense silence. No more Rey until the next movie.
Two, have some shellshocked nobody find the crystal fox things and save the good guys. She doesn’t need lines. She doesn’t need a name. The Force is in all living things. Anyone can be a hero.
Three, don’t hand the finale back to JJ fucking Abrams.
It’s a plot faucet. From an old discussion elsewhere:
Spreading 9 across two movies could not have helped. Sudden introduction was not the problem with a rehash of ROTJ and AOTC - quadrupling down on the Death Star lasers while also pulling a secret army out of thin air. Multiple fake-out deaths would be so much worse if they kept happening in two films. Giving people time to think about the macguffin chase could only make it sillier. They need a map in a thing from a guy who’s dead but has a knife matching ruins so it’s a map to the thing and they don’t even get it. But somehow they manage to fly through a rehash of the clouds from Solo, to where a zillion ships rely on one radio tower, and their brilliant plan for a wild-west shootout atop a spaceship - with horses! - completely fails until two zillion ships fly in to help. They just fly in. Through the secret cloud maze. Which is so un-navigable that it’s the only thing keeping the bad guys in, because spaceships can’t look up.
I heavily disagree, that movie disrespected the entire cast if you ask me. There was not a single story thread in TLJ that I found to be even slightly well thought out. Plenty of good ideas but the executions were horribly botched.
I cannot say anything abput Rise of Skywalker since I haven’t watched it but I don’t think tjat matters for the following. Imo TLJ was not the best movie out of the three, if we look at them in isolation, I could maybe see that being the case. But it isn’t a movie in isolation. It’s a sequel to a movie that already ate up most of the goodwill around. At least personally I was willing to cut TFA a lot of slack since it was the first movie in a good while for the Star Wars Universe. I was not willing to do so for TLJ sonce it was the second movie and they really should have had some idea of what the plan was by then. TFA probably screws over the trilogy harder than TLJ with its plot but TLJ doesn’t get the “Has to restart movie franchise” card that TFA got.
No not really, TLJ on its own sucks. TFA also sucks. Probably even moreso. But when TFA came out it had an advantage that counterweighed a lot of the issues. TLJ did not have that luxury. I think we think of this differently. I have not watched the movies again after their cinematic release so I’m rating them as I experienced them then. If I rewatched these movies now I might agree with you since TFA does not have any “new movie after ages” hype bonus clouding my mind.
The only thing I’m blaming on TLJ is in hindsight making TFA even worse since its failure turned the first movie into a premonition instead of a weak start.
Rian provided answers for JJ’s mystery-box bullshit. They weren’t JJ’s answers, but as the third movie proved, JJ’s answers sucked. Spreading that garbage thinner would not improve the smell.
One answer in particular was fucking incredible writing: Rey’s parents were nobodies. Every aspect of the movie is telling the audience, nobody owes you a destiny, go do cool stuff. Anyone can be a hero. Hey kids, remember how Luke used to be some dirt farmer who saved the universe? Like an identifiable protagonist, and not the secret heir of a prophesied royal messiah? Here you go. Four more of those. Some backwater survivor who can kick ass with a broom handle and three flavors of burned-out space pilot.
JJ going ‘nuh uh!’ wasn’t necessary, clever, or excusable. He dragged the franchise back, kicking and screaming, to being 100.0% about one family of aristocratic space wizards. Slapped that shit right in the title. And yet - people regurgitate that Rian tried to undo everything. You closed out the comment by describing how JJ did that, and at no point do those neurons talk to one another.
Messing up the Sequels was a team effort. JJ’s Setup was shit but Rian’s own writing wasn’t any better. Nothing in JJ’s Setup requires a Bullshit Holdo maneuver, or turning Luke into a character from an alternate Universe. Yes the bag of Mysteries Rian was handed was full of steaming shit but that doesn’t really matter because in the end he decided to add some shit of his own before handing it back to JJ. You claim I say Rian fucked up the Trilogie, he didn’t. He only fucked up 1/3 of it. TLJ however did in retrospect change my view on TFA because, as we agree, JJ’s Mystery boxes turned out to be shit. I don’t claim that Rian fucked that up, he simply tore off the bandaid with his own bad movie. The blame for TFA (and Rise of SkywalkerPalpatine) lays solely with JJ.
As I said in another comment chain: TLJ was bad, but the hate it gets is overblown.
That math doesn’t math. He was directly responsible for 2/3s of it, and the other third he plowed over.
Rian’s script was a genuinely excellent anarchist critique of space opera. Whether or not that belongs in a numbered Star Wars movie is debatable. But the real disconnect with the audience is the edit. The film we got is not excellent. The film we got is not exactly good. And yet - all popular criticism is this same irrelevant fluff.
Luke being a hermit was JJ’s fault. It was immutable, when Rian began. Rian’s explanation was fine. Jesus Christ, his description of the Force is incredible. People keep shitting on his opinion of the Jedi as if the Jedi way didn’t fail the Republic, fail his parents, and fail his mentors, all two of whom kept playing mind games even after death. Some girl shows up expecting How To Hero 101 and of course he says no.
I ask you - as opposed to what?
Sketch it out for me. What does Luke’s motivation look like, when a Force-sensitive rando shows up on his extremely private retreat, offering a tool he built from scratch and obviously abandoned? The man knows smugglers, bounty hunters, militants, and diplomats. He’s attuned to a psychic power that permeates all life and matter. Some glorified barkeep having his backup glowstick in her basement would not stop him from getting it, if he set aside a month and gave half a shit. Tell me what it would look like, if it looked like that Luke Skywalker was well-written, in your eyes.
Me, personally? I’m quite happy with him kicking Rey straight down the only-what-you-take-with-you hole. He doesn’t toy with her except to show her she doesn’t need training and shouldn’t want training. Yoda played some Mister Miyagi shit while he was looking for a level-up before 1v1-ing the scariest motherfucker in the universe. “Ben” was a dutch uncle his whole life and never mentioned he had space-wizard bona fides, nevermind that his dad was alive and well and the scariest motherfucker in the universe. Jedi hermit Luke points out: the fact this trilogy exists means that what Luke did did not work. Of course he tells her not to repeat his mistakes. His ambition did not solve the problem.
That math doesn’t math. He was directly responsible for 2/3s of it, and the other third he plowed over.
Read this again:
You claim I say Rian fucked up the Trilogie, he didn’t. He only fucked up 1/3 of it.
I’m saying Rian only fucked up 1/3, not JJ.
Rian’s explanation was fine.
I sorta disagree. Other possible explanations aside (I dunno, maybe Luke went to undertake a serious ritual and didn’t want to get interrupted unless absolutely necessary) this explanation demands a lot more elaboration. The concept is fine but it would need some more fleshing out (I would prefer a short movie) to pick up the audience. The gaps between Episode 6 Luke, Flashback Luke and Episode 8 Luke are too large to bridge with suspension of disbelief/imagination for some. The trajectory many thought Luke would take does not match what we are shown, which means the audience should be shown a bit more to adjust that trajectory. The audience needs to see Luke drift off first before this transgression, not just told it happened. We do not need to see Luke attack Kylo. We need to see him drift off into intolerance to narrow the gap between Episode 6 and the Flashback. As it stands we see Luke on a trajectory to heroism in Episode 6, then an angry old man in the Flashback and someone who recognized the error of their ways in Episode 8, the difference between Flashback Luke and Episode 8 Luke is fine but the difference between Episode 6 Luke and Flashback Luke is not. His character makes a complete U-Turn in between and we, as the audience, have not a single clue why. It does not match the character we know to such an extreme extent that is completely takes you out of the movie. There was just not enough time in that movie to fit such an Arc for someone who is a Side Character+.
Still no idea what you think was missing from the explanation of how he got there. Him being there was a given. It awkwardly ended the previous movie, with a bizarre helicopter circle shot. Sprinkled throughout two whole acts, we got a Rashomon overview of him doing what we expected and having that blow up in his face. Short of making the movie about him–
And we’re glossing over how Luke in Return Of The Jedi very nearly turned to the dark side. The Emperor was fuckin’ thrilled until he got chucked down that elevator shaft. Luke Skywalker was always a hold-my-beer archetype. Plan A for Darth Vader was murder. There was no Plan B. Even with Jabba and the Emperor, his idea of a diplomatic alternative was to surrender his way in, and then murder his way out.
Luke being grumpy is infinitely more explicable than having the empire ‘return, somehow.’ Especially for an audience that’s spent decades joking about the prequels, and wonders if the whole franchise would’ve gone better if Qui-Gon hadn’t yelled “duck.” Having the prescience to see Kylo ruin everything is the fuzzy precognition we’ve long since known about. Seriously considering murder as a solution is his go-to. He’s not Batman.
It was the best of its trilogy and most criticism is complete nonsense, but it still wasn’t a great movie. An anti-war deconstruction of Star Wars got made into an actual Star Wars. And that was probably fantastic at one point, but the edit we got was soured by obvious corporate meddling - like the ‘whoops, nevermind’ ending.
Three simple things would’ve saved it.
One, end the Rey / Kylo story immediately after their fight together. ‘Join me.’ Tense silence. No more Rey until the next movie.
Two, have some shellshocked nobody find the crystal fox things and save the good guys. She doesn’t need lines. She doesn’t need a name. The Force is in all living things. Anyone can be a hero.
Three, don’t hand the finale back to JJ fucking Abrams.
rise of skywalker fucked up everything. they tried to appease the fans and it failed big time
It’s a plot faucet. From an old discussion elsewhere:
I heavily disagree, that movie disrespected the entire cast if you ask me. There was not a single story thread in TLJ that I found to be even slightly well thought out. Plenty of good ideas but the executions were horribly botched.
I cannot say anything abput Rise of Skywalker since I haven’t watched it but I don’t think tjat matters for the following. Imo TLJ was not the best movie out of the three, if we look at them in isolation, I could maybe see that being the case. But it isn’t a movie in isolation. It’s a sequel to a movie that already ate up most of the goodwill around. At least personally I was willing to cut TFA a lot of slack since it was the first movie in a good while for the Star Wars Universe. I was not willing to do so for TLJ sonce it was the second movie and they really should have had some idea of what the plan was by then. TFA probably screws over the trilogy harder than TLJ with its plot but TLJ doesn’t get the “Has to restart movie franchise” card that TFA got.
Aforementioned complete nonsense. You’re blaming the middle movie for what the other movies did.
No not really, TLJ on its own sucks. TFA also sucks. Probably even moreso. But when TFA came out it had an advantage that counterweighed a lot of the issues. TLJ did not have that luxury. I think we think of this differently. I have not watched the movies again after their cinematic release so I’m rating them as I experienced them then. If I rewatched these movies now I might agree with you since TFA does not have any “new movie after ages” hype bonus clouding my mind.
The only thing I’m blaming on TLJ is in hindsight making TFA even worse since its failure turned the first movie into a premonition instead of a weak start.
Rian provided answers for JJ’s mystery-box bullshit. They weren’t JJ’s answers, but as the third movie proved, JJ’s answers sucked. Spreading that garbage thinner would not improve the smell.
One answer in particular was fucking incredible writing: Rey’s parents were nobodies. Every aspect of the movie is telling the audience, nobody owes you a destiny, go do cool stuff. Anyone can be a hero. Hey kids, remember how Luke used to be some dirt farmer who saved the universe? Like an identifiable protagonist, and not the secret heir of a prophesied royal messiah? Here you go. Four more of those. Some backwater survivor who can kick ass with a broom handle and three flavors of burned-out space pilot.
JJ going ‘nuh uh!’ wasn’t necessary, clever, or excusable. He dragged the franchise back, kicking and screaming, to being 100.0% about one family of aristocratic space wizards. Slapped that shit right in the title. And yet - people regurgitate that Rian tried to undo everything. You closed out the comment by describing how JJ did that, and at no point do those neurons talk to one another.
Messing up the Sequels was a team effort. JJ’s Setup was shit but Rian’s own writing wasn’t any better. Nothing in JJ’s Setup requires a Bullshit Holdo maneuver, or turning Luke into a character from an alternate Universe. Yes the bag of Mysteries Rian was handed was full of steaming shit but that doesn’t really matter because in the end he decided to add some shit of his own before handing it back to JJ. You claim I say Rian fucked up the Trilogie, he didn’t. He only fucked up 1/3 of it. TLJ however did in retrospect change my view on TFA because, as we agree, JJ’s Mystery boxes turned out to be shit. I don’t claim that Rian fucked that up, he simply tore off the bandaid with his own bad movie. The blame for TFA (and Rise of
SkywalkerPalpatine) lays solely with JJ.As I said in another comment chain: TLJ was bad, but the hate it gets is overblown.
That math doesn’t math. He was directly responsible for 2/3s of it, and the other third he plowed over.
Rian’s script was a genuinely excellent anarchist critique of space opera. Whether or not that belongs in a numbered Star Wars movie is debatable. But the real disconnect with the audience is the edit. The film we got is not excellent. The film we got is not exactly good. And yet - all popular criticism is this same irrelevant fluff.
Luke being a hermit was JJ’s fault. It was immutable, when Rian began. Rian’s explanation was fine. Jesus Christ, his description of the Force is incredible. People keep shitting on his opinion of the Jedi as if the Jedi way didn’t fail the Republic, fail his parents, and fail his mentors, all two of whom kept playing mind games even after death. Some girl shows up expecting How To Hero 101 and of course he says no.
I ask you - as opposed to what?
Sketch it out for me. What does Luke’s motivation look like, when a Force-sensitive rando shows up on his extremely private retreat, offering a tool he built from scratch and obviously abandoned? The man knows smugglers, bounty hunters, militants, and diplomats. He’s attuned to a psychic power that permeates all life and matter. Some glorified barkeep having his backup glowstick in her basement would not stop him from getting it, if he set aside a month and gave half a shit. Tell me what it would look like, if it looked like that Luke Skywalker was well-written, in your eyes.
Me, personally? I’m quite happy with him kicking Rey straight down the only-what-you-take-with-you hole. He doesn’t toy with her except to show her she doesn’t need training and shouldn’t want training. Yoda played some Mister Miyagi shit while he was looking for a level-up before 1v1-ing the scariest motherfucker in the universe. “Ben” was a dutch uncle his whole life and never mentioned he had space-wizard bona fides, nevermind that his dad was alive and well and the scariest motherfucker in the universe. Jedi hermit Luke points out: the fact this trilogy exists means that what Luke did did not work. Of course he tells her not to repeat his mistakes. His ambition did not solve the problem.
Read this again:
I’m saying Rian only fucked up 1/3, not JJ.
I sorta disagree. Other possible explanations aside (I dunno, maybe Luke went to undertake a serious ritual and didn’t want to get interrupted unless absolutely necessary) this explanation demands a lot more elaboration. The concept is fine but it would need some more fleshing out (I would prefer a short movie) to pick up the audience. The gaps between Episode 6 Luke, Flashback Luke and Episode 8 Luke are too large to bridge with suspension of disbelief/imagination for some. The trajectory many thought Luke would take does not match what we are shown, which means the audience should be shown a bit more to adjust that trajectory. The audience needs to see Luke drift off first before this transgression, not just told it happened. We do not need to see Luke attack Kylo. We need to see him drift off into intolerance to narrow the gap between Episode 6 and the Flashback. As it stands we see Luke on a trajectory to heroism in Episode 6, then an angry old man in the Flashback and someone who recognized the error of their ways in Episode 8, the difference between Flashback Luke and Episode 8 Luke is fine but the difference between Episode 6 Luke and Flashback Luke is not. His character makes a complete U-Turn in between and we, as the audience, have not a single clue why. It does not match the character we know to such an extreme extent that is completely takes you out of the movie. There was just not enough time in that movie to fit such an Arc for someone who is a Side Character+.
Whoops. Yeah fair enough on mathing that math.
Still no idea what you think was missing from the explanation of how he got there. Him being there was a given. It awkwardly ended the previous movie, with a bizarre helicopter circle shot. Sprinkled throughout two whole acts, we got a Rashomon overview of him doing what we expected and having that blow up in his face. Short of making the movie about him–
And we’re glossing over how Luke in Return Of The Jedi very nearly turned to the dark side. The Emperor was fuckin’ thrilled until he got chucked down that elevator shaft. Luke Skywalker was always a hold-my-beer archetype. Plan A for Darth Vader was murder. There was no Plan B. Even with Jabba and the Emperor, his idea of a diplomatic alternative was to surrender his way in, and then murder his way out.
Luke being grumpy is infinitely more explicable than having the empire ‘return, somehow.’ Especially for an audience that’s spent decades joking about the prequels, and wonders if the whole franchise would’ve gone better if Qui-Gon hadn’t yelled “duck.” Having the prescience to see Kylo ruin everything is the fuzzy precognition we’ve long since known about. Seriously considering murder as a solution is his go-to. He’s not Batman.