How about because they’re not actually particularly Marxist-Leninist, but simply red flavored fascists and everyone with two neurons to rub together can see that?
Not to no true scotsman this shit, but does anyone self-identify as “Leninist” who isn’t a Stalinist?
Marxist is a pretty tame word, all things considered. Marxism is a pretty broad tent that fits a lot of people. But I don’t think I have ever interacted with a self-described “Leninist” that wasn’t authoritarian and against civil rights. This coming from a guy who regularly quotes Lenin.
Indeed. Leninism as something separate to Marxism comes from Stalin’s “The Foundations of Leninism” in 1924. He wasted no time after Lenin died to coopt Lenins already flawed adaptations for his own needs. There is no “Leninism” separate from Stalin.
As a Marxist, and someone who have considered myself a communist (though I rarely use the term now mostly because it results in tedious discussions about exactly by what definition; a more precise term would be libertarian Marxist), I’ve stood face to face with “Marxist-Leninists” who told me that if they were in charge I’d be sent to a labor camp because I supported democracy.
To me they’re as much of a threat and as much of an enemy to me as any fascist.
“Democratic” centralism was a very dangerous mistake, and the notion of a vanguard party likewise, because they combine to make a party far too easy to capture by people who think they know best, and so can do away with the corrective input of other people, and that attracts exactly the same type of people who are attracted to fascism. There may be distinctions in who exactly they want to lock up and what they want to outlaw, but there are significant overlaps there too.
100% It’s such a tragic and fucked up thing that the words have been so corrupted and co-opted. Can’t identify as communist due to McCarthy-ist propaganda in the West and the corruption of Lenin and Stalin still clinging heavily to the term to this day. And for many the same reasons can’t even claim to be libertarian without having to explain topeople that you aren’t just selfish capitalists. Due to all the Twisted Rothbard propaganda. And Marx / Marxism which hasn’t done anything wrong has just been beaten into the ground with misinformation.
It’s so tedious to have to try to educate every single person you talk to. So much easier unfortunately to just use more vague or abstract terms. Though honestly I think there is a lot of value in identifying with and differentiating the terms. And trying to take them back. I for one don’t think I would have come to the realization I have today had people not done it to me.
You are spot on that leninists/stalinists are nobody’s friend though. Just like all authoritarians they’ll turn on themselves even eventually. And Leninism is one term there is no rehabilitation for.
I kinda like reclaiming the term libertarian, though, because it really fucks with the heads of US right-wing libertarians to quote Joseph Dejacque to them with his agreement with Proudhon’s “property is theft”.
I’ve taken to seeing my goals as not to convince the people I talk to, but to convince “passers-by”. That is far more satisfying because it takes far less effort. You get far just by showing patience and letting the other person stumble in their own words and reach for the insults. Just earlier today someone got a ban for going off the rails and supporting Pinochet in that thread about CIA admitting their mistakes in Iran - he convinced nobody, and ended up contributing to making himself look like a crazed bloodthirsty psychopath. If I’d hoped to “win” that argument, I’d have despaired, but as a beacon illustrating the immorality of coopting democracy “preventatively” out of unsupported fears it was glorious.
With respect to the tankies, my biggest concern is the number of people who just aren’t paying that close attention. There are lots of nice quotes even from Stalin in isolation. When people treat tankies as if they’re just a bit misguided but still part of the same broad movement, they provide fertile ground for these people to peddle their shit that way, and get legitimised by proximity. To me that is the biggest risk the pose - their access to left-wing spaces must be fought, because the moment they’re on the outside their recruitment is far harder.
That would definitely be a good way to make the heads of those who unironically claim that taxation is theft explode. Though I’m much more a fan of phrasing it as private property. It’s a little more constructive and concise. Even those that are being disingenuous would generally reflexively ask what other kind there is. Besides public property of course. Which is an excellent opportunity to explain concepts like personal property. Whether or not they’ll be listening. Because others might.
I think it’s dangerous to assume/conflate passion with childishness/name calling. For instance the word tankie. Yes some of them have unironically embraced it. But generally it is just name calling as well. Granted many will whine that you’re calling them names. Even when you’re just labeling then as what their words and actions show then to be. Not all names are created equal. Which is why I stick mostly to calling them Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist etc. Which ever is more applicable. Because it’s what they clearly are and espouse. Most of them don’t own a tank however. And the average person wouldn’t understand the reference.🤷 That said, if name calling is the only thing someone had to offer. Yeah fuck that.
I tend to stick to what people call themselves when talking to them, but the term “tankie” is broad, and sometimes I don’t feel like listing every variation. I don’t think it’s connotations are much worse than those of the names of their various ideologies.
Yeah, if they choose to use it themselves that’s fair. Typically that isn’t my experience. But it is just that, my experience only. Though honestly if I were to find ones that did do that. Lemmygrad definitely would be a prime location lol. But I never really saw anything there worth engaging.
How about because they’re not actually particularly Marxist-Leninist, but simply red flavored fascists and everyone with two neurons to rub together can see that?
Not to no true scotsman this shit, but does anyone self-identify as “Leninist” who isn’t a Stalinist?
Marxist is a pretty tame word, all things considered. Marxism is a pretty broad tent that fits a lot of people. But I don’t think I have ever interacted with a self-described “Leninist” that wasn’t authoritarian and against civil rights. This coming from a guy who regularly quotes Lenin.
Indeed. Leninism as something separate to Marxism comes from Stalin’s “The Foundations of Leninism” in 1924. He wasted no time after Lenin died to coopt Lenins already flawed adaptations for his own needs. There is no “Leninism” separate from Stalin.
As a Marxist, and someone who have considered myself a communist (though I rarely use the term now mostly because it results in tedious discussions about exactly by what definition; a more precise term would be libertarian Marxist), I’ve stood face to face with “Marxist-Leninists” who told me that if they were in charge I’d be sent to a labor camp because I supported democracy.
To me they’re as much of a threat and as much of an enemy to me as any fascist.
“Democratic” centralism was a very dangerous mistake, and the notion of a vanguard party likewise, because they combine to make a party far too easy to capture by people who think they know best, and so can do away with the corrective input of other people, and that attracts exactly the same type of people who are attracted to fascism. There may be distinctions in who exactly they want to lock up and what they want to outlaw, but there are significant overlaps there too.
100% It’s such a tragic and fucked up thing that the words have been so corrupted and co-opted. Can’t identify as communist due to McCarthy-ist propaganda in the West and the corruption of Lenin and Stalin still clinging heavily to the term to this day. And for many the same reasons can’t even claim to be libertarian without having to explain topeople that you aren’t just selfish capitalists. Due to all the Twisted Rothbard propaganda. And Marx / Marxism which hasn’t done anything wrong has just been beaten into the ground with misinformation.
It’s so tedious to have to try to educate every single person you talk to. So much easier unfortunately to just use more vague or abstract terms. Though honestly I think there is a lot of value in identifying with and differentiating the terms. And trying to take them back. I for one don’t think I would have come to the realization I have today had people not done it to me.
You are spot on that leninists/stalinists are nobody’s friend though. Just like all authoritarians they’ll turn on themselves even eventually. And Leninism is one term there is no rehabilitation for.
I kinda like reclaiming the term libertarian, though, because it really fucks with the heads of US right-wing libertarians to quote Joseph Dejacque to them with his agreement with Proudhon’s “property is theft”.
I’ve taken to seeing my goals as not to convince the people I talk to, but to convince “passers-by”. That is far more satisfying because it takes far less effort. You get far just by showing patience and letting the other person stumble in their own words and reach for the insults. Just earlier today someone got a ban for going off the rails and supporting Pinochet in that thread about CIA admitting their mistakes in Iran - he convinced nobody, and ended up contributing to making himself look like a crazed bloodthirsty psychopath. If I’d hoped to “win” that argument, I’d have despaired, but as a beacon illustrating the immorality of coopting democracy “preventatively” out of unsupported fears it was glorious.
With respect to the tankies, my biggest concern is the number of people who just aren’t paying that close attention. There are lots of nice quotes even from Stalin in isolation. When people treat tankies as if they’re just a bit misguided but still part of the same broad movement, they provide fertile ground for these people to peddle their shit that way, and get legitimised by proximity. To me that is the biggest risk the pose - their access to left-wing spaces must be fought, because the moment they’re on the outside their recruitment is far harder.
That would definitely be a good way to make the heads of those who unironically claim that taxation is theft explode. Though I’m much more a fan of phrasing it as private property. It’s a little more constructive and concise. Even those that are being disingenuous would generally reflexively ask what other kind there is. Besides public property of course. Which is an excellent opportunity to explain concepts like personal property. Whether or not they’ll be listening. Because others might.
I think it’s dangerous to assume/conflate passion with childishness/name calling. For instance the word tankie. Yes some of them have unironically embraced it. But generally it is just name calling as well. Granted many will whine that you’re calling them names. Even when you’re just labeling then as what their words and actions show then to be. Not all names are created equal. Which is why I stick mostly to calling them Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist etc. Which ever is more applicable. Because it’s what they clearly are and espouse. Most of them don’t own a tank however. And the average person wouldn’t understand the reference.🤷 That said, if name calling is the only thing someone had to offer. Yeah fuck that.
I tend to stick to what people call themselves when talking to them, but the term “tankie” is broad, and sometimes I don’t feel like listing every variation. I don’t think it’s connotations are much worse than those of the names of their various ideologies.
Yeah, if they choose to use it themselves that’s fair. Typically that isn’t my experience. But it is just that, my experience only. Though honestly if I were to find ones that did do that. Lemmygrad definitely would be a prime location lol. But I never really saw anything there worth engaging.