“Officials said that Israel and Egypt were prepared to let foreigners leave the Strip which is under heavy Israeli bombardment, but Hamas had refused.”
“Officials said that Israel and Egypt were prepared to let foreigners leave the Strip which is under heavy Israeli bombardment, but Hamas had refused.”
Israel is going to try its best. Nobody else is going to touch this with a ten foot pole. Most of the international community isn’t even willing to condemn Hamas, let alone go in there and get rid of them. Israel literally calls them up in the buildings they’re going to bomb and says “please evacuate this building by this time!” You can’t make that shit up.
If Egypt or the UN wants to take care of Gaza after the war, and actually make sure they don’t get weapons, and actually de-radicalize them (current schools in Gaza are not great at deradicalization), you name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that. They didn’t blockade Gaza for fun, blockades are expensive. But burying the dead from the constant attacks of a Hamas with infinite weaponry is fucking worse.
You’ve lost the support of the international community and even the US is distancing itself from the approach you are taking. This is a fools errand to try to extract a part of a society by direct force (see Vietnam, Afghanistan <-two different super powers made that mistake). What this will be is an excuse to murder as judge, jury and executioner as you move to further subjugate a civilian population behind closed doors. Literal closed walls in Gaza’s case. These kids have grown up knowing nothing but what the adults tell them and looking at the walls that keep them in.
“You name it, I’m sure Israel would be on board with that” How about just releasing the Prisoners for the hostages and going home?
So maybe not everything. Please don’t judge Dan for not responding, He blocked me an hour ago as he didn’t like my response to the justification of the 3,000 children that have been bombed to death in Gaza.
edit: deleted two words I accidentally repeated
I mean, exchanging prisoners means freeing those who massacred on oct.7, and come on, Israel is not that stupid to let them run free again. That exchange will bite them tenfold in years to come if they do it (and they realized it now, hence they don’t agree to it)
He probably blocked you because you argue in bad faith and lie about your historical examples - like pretending Vietnam wasn’t a war of two established, professional militaries just as Korea was.
This, for instance, is an insane proposition and you throw it out like it’s the obvious good choice.
Israel has traded 1000 poisoners for a single soldier in the past why is it “an insane proposition” all of a sudden? https://www.cnn.com/2011/10/17/world/meast/israel-prisoner-swap-explainer/index.html
You sure can’t be consistent.
You keep quacking dude don’t blame us for noticing it.
I mean, some of those 1,000 prisoners were active in that recent oct.7 massacre, so I guess that Israel learned from its mistakes. As much as it pains them, they can’t effort giving Hamas forces, as they’ll regret it tenfold later.
If Israel was truly worried about regretting it later they wouldn’t be growing a whole new generation of people that have every reason to hate them. Their actions over the decades speak FAR louder than the words they use to seem like they are trying, as does the body count of innocents.
For more than the last decade Israel spent 0 efforts on raising the Gaza population and completely left them to run their own educational/inner governmental funding. That proved to be the worst mistake they could ever do, as that educational program is pure hate fuel for religious extremists and the government funding (which btw is a lot of funding from foreigners) was used for rockets and anti-tank ammunition instead of safe houses for civilians. Heck, the only safe zones are the underground tunnels, which are only used for Hamas fighters.
All that means is that Israel should’ve either completely hammer down on stuff going in, and truly be like china murdering muslims, or completely run the region themselves, which is basically colonialism. Which option is good? None. Who can be blamed for that? The Palestinians leaders.
Don’t get me wrong, Israel’s leaders also chose a very bad option of leaving it alone and letting it grow into a monster, but let’s face it - they had no good options on what to do with Gaza. So blaming everything that’s happening purely on Israel, is just unfair. What could they have done to prevent this?
I could not declare genocide.
Do I really need to go find every quote from Bibi and Israeli Officials declaring their intent?
Not do decades of persecution PRIOR to Hamas even existing.
Not have Israel fund Hamas for years.
Not drop bombs on refugee camps.
Not cut off food, water, electricity.
Not shoot peaceful protesters.
Not kill journalists.
Not kill clearly marked medics.
Do I really need to go on?
“What could they have done to prevent this?”
Fuck
off.
Not doing any of this stuff would’ve meant a Palestinian state in Gaza led by Hamas.
Such a state would’ve killed many more jews.
Is it really that hard to see such obvious facts? What action has Palestinian ever done to warrant faith from the Israeli side that they wouldn’t get massacres if Palestinians had a state.
It’s as simple as that. Make Israelis not feel threatened, make a state. Do make Israelis feel threatened, get oppression.
And no other country in the world would do differently when feeling threatened. Some would do actual genocide and have 2 million dead.
If you don’t understand, from the events currently at play, that Israel is most definitely not going to exchange their prisoners for hostages, then I question if you’ve been paying attention.
Sorry the Cornell thing hurt your feelings so much, but it’s weird for you to follow me around
Im posting all over the place you keep showing up and quacking away.
You know who doesn’t think it’s insane? The families of the the hostages who I quote directly underneath that who say that it has the support of all of Israel. Are you calling them liars? Are you disparaging them and saying they’re insane? This is the opposite of diplomacy, as you say.
Yeah I think someone whose family member is fucking kidnapped is not thinking rationally. Of course they will support literally anything to get their kidnapped relative back
So you are disparaging them. Classy.
Again acknowledging reality is not endorsing any specific view.
When someone you love is a victim of a tragedy you will understand that you are not, in fact, the rational robot you think you are.
Their fortunate to have such a rational person speaking on their behalf
Is that statement irrational?
First sentence of your article suggests that he regrets such a post. So… Yeah.
News: Israel only catches or kills a dozen Hamas fighters but kills 8k citizen civilians with over 1k children under the rubble.
Bullshit.
The death of each Palestinian civilian is a tragedy. Hamas provoked the war, Hamas is killing as many of them as anybody. Israel is engaged in remarkably precise targeting of enemy combatants and places an entirely unprecedented effort into warning them when they’re about to strike.
This is urban warfare. This is what Hamas called for.
The 8k number is confirmed by many organizations. The whole idea that the number is disputed comes from American politics.
It’s amazing that Israel is always the victim, yet never does anything wrong.
name one.
Here’s a list: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-doubts-humanitarian-agencies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/
I bolded them for you
Dan probably blocked you for that one.
Nah. Maybe he’ll come to his senses? Or maybe the UN is antisemetic?
Oh dang, someone else got a memory too :)
You know this is propaganda right? That number never came from Hamas go find them quoting it as fact, I’ll wait.
The number came from an interview with a doctor right after the attack and it was mistranslated on Aljazeera. Other news agencies never fact checked it and ran with the number attributing it to Hamas.
The number of casualities there was 471. 500 is an acceptable estimate.
(sorry, I don’t know why I never posted this, I have way too many tabs open)
Well, let’s see, where did the Telegraph get its 8,000 number from?
… gee, I didn’t even have to dig one layer deep, the Telegraph itself tells you it’s from Hamas. =/
Let’s focus on the 500, though, who cites the number as a Hamas claim verified by literally nobody else?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-blast-deaths.html
And who else commented on the number?
the Al-shifa hospital director, who estimated it was half of that.
But Hamas just knew in less than 20 minutes, somehow, that it was 500.
Does the doctor work for Hamas?
Gee, I wonder how a Hamas employed doctor managed to count 500 dead bodies within 20 minutes. Israel is still trying to tally its dead, but Hamas managed to pronounce 500 people dead just in time to falsely accuse Israel of attacking the hospital on Al Jazeera?
The first step to deradicalize them is to stop putting Palestinians in a concentration camp. Simple as.
What a strange concentration camp that was, where Palestinians were able to go into Israel to work every day, travel abroad, etc. Almost like most other national borders (except for Schengen), where you need a passport and maybe even a visa to enter. Or like the US, where you’re not allowed in if they even suspect you’re going to work. Also, let’s not forget the terrorists that constantly threaten to kill your citizens. Would you let them into your house?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
The UN is very one-sided on this conflict. I was surprised to watch a documentary on the history of the Israeli - Palestine conflict, made by the UN, and it didn’t mention Hamas or their attacks at all. I expected better from the UN, but here we are.
Yes, the UN is sided with the victims, not with a apartheid state.
Yes, because this is just one powerful country killing an entire population of innocent people, and for absolutely no reason. That’s what’s happening. No nuance, no history, nothing. Just this one event, completely isolated and all black and white.
Congrats on your firm grip on reality.
Nope, there is a rich history of apartheid and prison torture too.
You’re hopeless.
So which is it, are they being allowed freedom of movement into Israel to work with identification, or you don’t want them in because they’re terrorists who threaten to kill civilians?
All I’ve seen is that some people were allowed in and out, but it isn’t exactly a porous border, identification requirements are strict, getting the necessary approval and documentation is difficult in a place without a functioning state. And you can’t just make rules and distance yourself from the consequences of them just because people are unable to meet the requirements of those rules, you have to actually look at what the effect is.
So you don’t think border control is justified given the presence of terrorists?
I agree that consequences should be taken into consideration, and I assume you don’t think they were in this case.
What’s your solution? What would you have done?
Those Gazans with work permits are now being illegally detained in Israel.
Define “illegal” in a war.
Against international law, not that Israel cares
Please point me to the international law (I assume you mean the Geneva Convention) that says that you can’t take prisoners.
I said you can’t illegally detain people without charge, not that you can’t take prisoners. A large number of Palestinians are held without charge in Israelz and in the past few weeks that number has sky rocketed with many arbitrary detention.
Ah, I see. Do I have a bit of news for you: Israel and Gaza are at war.
Even normally pro-Israeli news outlets are condemning what is happening. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/israeli-tanks-on-outskirts-of-gaza-city-with-key-road-cut
Israel doesn’t really want to be rid of Hamas.
Their investment in the group has already paid dividends.
How are they calling to warn anyone? The entire communications infrastructure is so compromised that ambulances are literally just driving towards the sound of explosions rather than being directed.
There’s a lot of ways, I’ve seen leaflet drops, radio (windup fm radios are widely used), telephone calls (mobile) and drones with speakers being used but I’m sure they’re also using other methods too
Well no you still need infrastructure for mobile. And there are no reports of drones with speakers. The IDF method was dropping a dud first and they aren’t doing that anymore because the mission intensity is too high to sustain it.
Well, Gaza’s internet and phone services are up again, but if you’d been paying attention, you know that, in addition, they’ve also been using roof knocking, and also dropping flyers, and every other fucking thing they can manage to warn civilians on every time scale. If you have any other idea how Israel should disable rocket facilities, feel free.
Preferably with something smaller than a 2,000 lb bomb. And a flyers bearing a general warning to evacuate does not count when you won’t let them through your lines. It’s no different to the school bully holding their victim down and “warning” them they’re going to get hit.
And even if the Internet is back now, how did they warn anyone in the same 48 hours they bombed even more than before?
And no. They aren’t doing knocking. That’s something they do in limited operations. Not now.
Memri TV is literally Israeli propaganda.
Basically turn them into a mini West bank; people with no means to defend themselves, constantly getting attacked by settlers and the police. Make them believe that this is normal and that they shouldn’t defend themselves on your way out.
There are no settlements in Gaza. In 2005, there were no settlements, there was no blockade, there was nothing but an opportunity for peace, and then, they elected Hamas.
If you’re afraid that Egypt or the UN is going to invite settlers in, that Egyptian police or the UN police are going to attack them, you might want to reevaluate your world view.
Let’s discuss another place inside of Palestine where there is an opportunity for peace; the West bank ruled by the Fatah government, which recognizes “Israel”. They also have no weapons that they can realistically use against settlers and the invading army.
Here’s what happens in the West bank, settlements exist in the West bank, settlers murder people in the West bank, and the police are protecting settlers while they’re doing it.
Gaza once was under the control of the PLO and Fatah, and there could’ve been peace, if not for Isn’trael opting to keep building settlements, encouraging people who’re being forced out of their homes to pick the more violent approach of Hamas. Which unlike negotiating with an occupying force, did get them to dismantle their disgusting settlements and leave to avoid losing more soldiers.
You’re dramatically oversimplifying the West Bank. It’s a military occupation, I’m not going to pretend it’s going well, but it’s going much better than Gaza, and peace talks there have been far more serious. The Olmert proposal was an exceedingly generous proposal, and the reason Abbas didn’t engage because, knowing that Hamas still had enough power that he couldn’t promise peace, not even with East Jerusalem, and especially not with any kind of land swaps. The core problem right now is just that Netanyahu’s government doesn’t actually want to make the situation better (and a lot of his —but that problem will resolve itself by Israel’s next election. His already low approval ratings have hit the gutter, and his coalition might not last much longer, although they might stick together while the war is going on.
Hamas doesn’t exist in a vacuum though. Most people don’t just wake up one day and think “hmm, terrorism sounds good to me today!” There’s always going to be a minority of people who end up having extremist views and committing violence, but a functioning state is able to keep those people under control. The fact that Netanyahu has no motivation to make the situation better is directly what causes this situation where people help Hamas out of desperation. They can’t wait for Israelis to get their act together and elect someone who is strongly motivated to make life better for Palestineans, they see that they have to live on the other side of a wall where only they have to deal with that level of poverty and violence on a regular basis and it’s unfair. If you put yourself in their shoes you’d get it too. That’s not a justification at all, it’s just empathy for their situation.
I can also empathize with Israelis who want revenge. People in Israel expect safety and don’t think of their country as a war-zone. It’s easy to think of the problem as entirely one-sided when you don’t have to deal with it, but it’s just not the case.