The tolerance paradox is bullshit. Source: Daryl Davis, the black dude who converted a ton (like over 80) KKK members by just being a tolerant human to them.
You have to tolerate the person, not the message. You can say “you’re a valid human being” and “the stuff that comes out of your mouth is actually terrible” at the same time. Doing anything else pushes all of those valid humans with bad ideas together and makes a big echo chamber.
Sure is. And it’s a lot faster for them to shoot whomever they don’t like too. You really want an open war with people who don’t have a fully developed concept of human rights?
He didn’t say we should just say gas them to death (like they’d do to some of us in a heartbeat), he just pointed out they deserve no right to be aggressive against minorities.
I see no issue there. If they want to be decent citizens there’s an easy solution to that; stop being a nazi.
Edit: I otherwise agree with your comment, as they probably need some deprogramming to actually achieve said solution.
“they’d do that to us in a heartbeat” is both wrong (not every person who entertains these ideas actually wants to kill anyone) and also not even a good point. If you want to improve the world noticeably, you have to be BETTER THAN not the same as. Go talk to a nazi, actually understand what they think and feel, and figure out where that disconnect is.
So you’re saying for example a woman gets brought up in an environment where she’s raised as a nazi you think that it’d be acceptable for someone to rape and beat her?
I don’t really think you do, I’m not going to bother listing other examples but you get the point - what you’re saying is not only absurd but it’s clearly not what you actually believe.
All people are people, it’s that simple and there’s no more to it.
The first sentence you posted is exactly the thread that line of thought leads down. Disenfranchised people need to be talked to, met with empathy from the people they’ve been told are The Other. That’s the only way to destigmatize the two from each other.
You did see the part where I agreed with you, right? I’ve worked with disenfranchised people myself. Some you can talk to, some not so much.
Either case their value as a human being doesn’t change, it’s just that their way of thinking doesn’t exactly mesh well with an orderly society.
You are intelligent enough to know what the actual Nazis did to a lot of people, so why would their contemporary version behave any differently in the long run?
While history has a way of cropping up again, we (individually and societally) know a lot more about how these things work. The problem i foresee is further alienating the most vocal, and the good intentioned not-nazis pave the way to hell for them.
I agree with you again, alienating those that are on the brink so to speak probably simply pushes them over. Communicating properly there is incredibly important and we’ve gotten a lot better at it since the '30s.
Again though, some are very hard to reach, either because of their upbringing or other more personal circumstances.
That’s a good, and hard, question. I unfortunately don’t know. I’ve lost both friends and relationships (including my father) over blatant racism and no amount of talking helped in any of those cases.
I tried for years to talk any kind of sense into my father but he seemed impervious to any kind of sense regarding this. We haven’t spoken for years at this point.
No, I was saying Nazis have a history of death and destruction, while people leaning towards democracy tend to be a little more gentle with their fellow man.
Nobody deserves to be beaten or raped and I certainly didn’t imply that.
You literally said they should have no rights, I get that you hadn’t thought about what you were saying but I really think it’s important to think about the implications of things we say.
I’d link that clip everyone always uses about the law Vs satan but it’s overused, surfice to sau dehumanising humans isn’t a thing good people do - and yes I know it’s popular to at the moment but when I was a kid everyone thought calling things gay as an insult was a great thing and we as a society grew from that so we can grow from this.
I obviously meant they shouldn’t have any rights to practice their nazism or do harmful things to whomever they dislike so much, not that they shouldn’t have any human rights.
I feel like this should’ve been fairly obvious given the context of the conversation. Human rights should always be the first concern no matter who it concerns. Do you think nazis feel the same way?
With all due respect, with just how many people are literally calling for violence in this thread, no, I didn’t connect those dots either. If you’re actually truthful about not meaning they shouldn’t have human rights, I’d strongly consider editing your previous statement. If you leave it, you’re feeding into the hate echo chamber that you actually seem pretty opposed to. Words have got to be specific, if you’re going to speak in absolutes, or people WILL misunderstand or mischaracterize you.
They might, but from my point of view human rights are a given in every situation. I also feel strongly about every human being holding the same value regardless of their standing in society.
I thought we were discussing what could be done to curb nazism, and again, I didn’t mention any sort of violence anywhere. I thought it was clear that I meant that Nazis shouldn’t have rights to do harm to others, or do other hateful things. I was in no way advocating removing their human rights.
The tolerance paradox is bullshit. Source: Daryl Davis, the black dude who converted a ton (like over 80) KKK members by just being a tolerant human to them.
You have to tolerate the person, not the message. You can say “you’re a valid human being” and “the stuff that comes out of your mouth is actually terrible” at the same time. Doing anything else pushes all of those valid humans with bad ideas together and makes a big echo chamber.
it’s a lot faster and more effective to shoot Nazis than validate them. also, I don’t argue with Nazis. Sartre had it right.
Sure is. And it’s a lot faster for them to shoot whomever they don’t like too. You really want an open war with people who don’t have a fully developed concept of human rights?
I don’t believe rights exist at all. but I know how to deal with Nazis
So just a pot, calling a kettle black. Got it.
if you think the problem with nazis is their theory on natural rights I guess so.
He didn’t say we should just say gas them to death (like they’d do to some of us in a heartbeat), he just pointed out they deserve no right to be aggressive against minorities.
I see no issue there. If they want to be decent citizens there’s an easy solution to that; stop being a nazi.
Edit: I otherwise agree with your comment, as they probably need some deprogramming to actually achieve said solution.
“they’d do that to us in a heartbeat” is both wrong (not every person who entertains these ideas actually wants to kill anyone) and also not even a good point. If you want to improve the world noticeably, you have to be BETTER THAN not the same as. Go talk to a nazi, actually understand what they think and feel, and figure out where that disconnect is.
So you’re saying for example a woman gets brought up in an environment where she’s raised as a nazi you think that it’d be acceptable for someone to rape and beat her?
I don’t really think you do, I’m not going to bother listing other examples but you get the point - what you’re saying is not only absurd but it’s clearly not what you actually believe.
All people are people, it’s that simple and there’s no more to it.
The first sentence you posted is exactly the thread that line of thought leads down. Disenfranchised people need to be talked to, met with empathy from the people they’ve been told are The Other. That’s the only way to destigmatize the two from each other.
You did see the part where I agreed with you, right? I’ve worked with disenfranchised people myself. Some you can talk to, some not so much.
Either case their value as a human being doesn’t change, it’s just that their way of thinking doesn’t exactly mesh well with an orderly society.
You are intelligent enough to know what the actual Nazis did to a lot of people, so why would their contemporary version behave any differently in the long run?
While history has a way of cropping up again, we (individually and societally) know a lot more about how these things work. The problem i foresee is further alienating the most vocal, and the good intentioned not-nazis pave the way to hell for them.
I agree with you again, alienating those that are on the brink so to speak probably simply pushes them over. Communicating properly there is incredibly important and we’ve gotten a lot better at it since the '30s.
Again though, some are very hard to reach, either because of their upbringing or other more personal circumstances.
I know it’s not easy, but real question, what’s the alternative? Exile, murder, or just letting it fester until we have another big Nazi thing?
That’s a good, and hard, question. I unfortunately don’t know. I’ve lost both friends and relationships (including my father) over blatant racism and no amount of talking helped in any of those cases.
I tried for years to talk any kind of sense into my father but he seemed impervious to any kind of sense regarding this. We haven’t spoken for years at this point.
No, I was saying Nazis have a history of death and destruction, while people leaning towards democracy tend to be a little more gentle with their fellow man.
Nobody deserves to be beaten or raped and I certainly didn’t imply that.
You literally said they should have no rights, I get that you hadn’t thought about what you were saying but I really think it’s important to think about the implications of things we say.
I’d link that clip everyone always uses about the law Vs satan but it’s overused, surfice to sau dehumanising humans isn’t a thing good people do - and yes I know it’s popular to at the moment but when I was a kid everyone thought calling things gay as an insult was a great thing and we as a society grew from that so we can grow from this.
I obviously meant they shouldn’t have any rights to practice their nazism or do harmful things to whomever they dislike so much, not that they shouldn’t have any human rights.
I feel like this should’ve been fairly obvious given the context of the conversation. Human rights should always be the first concern no matter who it concerns. Do you think nazis feel the same way?
With all due respect, with just how many people are literally calling for violence in this thread, no, I didn’t connect those dots either. If you’re actually truthful about not meaning they shouldn’t have human rights, I’d strongly consider editing your previous statement. If you leave it, you’re feeding into the hate echo chamber that you actually seem pretty opposed to. Words have got to be specific, if you’re going to speak in absolutes, or people WILL misunderstand or mischaracterize you.
They might, but from my point of view human rights are a given in every situation. I also feel strongly about every human being holding the same value regardless of their standing in society.
I thought we were discussing what could be done to curb nazism, and again, I didn’t mention any sort of violence anywhere. I thought it was clear that I meant that Nazis shouldn’t have rights to do harm to others, or do other hateful things. I was in no way advocating removing their human rights.
Understood. Context matters, for both of us.