I’d like to propose a new rule for this community:
People criticizing systemd to the extent where they promote alternatives (regressions), have to provide proof that they have or are maintaining init scripts for at least ten services with satisfying the following conditions: said init scripts must 1.) be shown to reliably start up the services and 2.) not signal their dependencies to early and 3.) gracefully stop the services 99.9% of the time. People failing to satisfy these conditions are not allowed to voice their opinions on how arbitrary init systems are better than systemd. Violations of this rule will be punished by temporary bans and forcing the violators to fill the entire canvas of a blackboard with “‘do one thing and do it well’ is a unix principle, not a linux principle” in fine print.
More lines of semi-reliable init scripts have been written by package maintainers, than lines of systemd code by Poettering & Co, and that while achieving far less. The old init systems might have been simple, the hell of init scripts wasn’t.
That might have been true a decade ago. I don’t actually know. I do know that modern init scripts for modern alternatives to systemd are barely longer than systemd service scripts though. So that’s kind of an insane take.
Sure, that seems pretty reasonable. Here’s the init script for sddm:
#!/usr/bin/openrc-run
supervisor=supervise-daemon
command="/usr/bin/sddm"
depend() {
need localmount
after bootmisc consolefont modules netmount
after ypbind autofs openvpn gpm lircmd
after quota keymaps
before alsasound
want logind
use xfs
provide xdm display-manager
}
That’s it. That’s the whole thing.
That’s a pretty simple one though, so here’s Alsa. It’s a more complex one:
code
#!/usr/bin/openrc-run# Copyright 1999-2019 Gentoo Authors# Distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License v2
alsastatedir=/var/lib/alsa
alsascrdir=/etc/alsa.d
alsahomedir=/run/alsasound
extra_commands="save restore"depend() {
need localmount
after bootmisc modules isapnp coldplug hotplug
}
restore() {
ebegin "Restoring Mixer Levels"
checkpath -q -d -m 0700 -o root:root ${alsahomedir} || return 1
if [ ! -r "${alsastatedir}/asound.state" ] ; then
ewarn "No mixer config in ${alsastatedir}/asound.state, you have to unmute your card!"
eend 0
return 0
filocal cards="$(sed -n -e 's/^ *\([[:digit:]]*\) .*/\1/p' /proc/asound/cards)"local CARDNUM
for cardnum in${cards}; do
[ -e /dev/snd/controlC${cardnum} ] || sleep 2
[ -e /dev/snd/controlC${cardnum} ] || sleep 2
[ -e /dev/snd/controlC${cardnum} ] || sleep 2
[ -e /dev/snd/controlC${cardnum} ] || sleep 2
alsactl -E HOME="${alsahomedir}" -I -f "${alsastatedir}/asound.state" restore ${cardnum} \
|| ewarn "Errors while restoring defaults, ignoring"donefor ossfile in"${alsastatedir}"/oss/card*_pcm* ; do
[ -e "${ossfile}" ] || continue# We use cat because I'm not sure if cp works properly on /proclocal procfile=${ossfile##${alsastatedir}/oss}
procfile="$(echo "${procfile}" | sed -e 's,_,/,g')"if [ -e /proc/asound/"${procfile}"/oss ] ; thencat"${ossfile}" > /proc/asound/"${procfile}"/oss
fidone
eend 0
}
save() {
ebegin "Storing ALSA Mixer Levels"
checkpath -q -d -m 0700 -o root:root ${alsahomedir} || return 1
mkdir -p "${alsastatedir}"if ! alsactl -E HOME="${alsahomedir}" -f "${alsastatedir}/asound.state" store; then
eerror "Error saving levels."
eend 1
return 1
fifor ossfile in /proc/asound/card*/pcm*/oss; do
[ -e "${ossfile}" ] || continuelocal device=${ossfile##/proc/asound/} ; device=${device%%/oss}
device="$(echo "${device}" | sed -e 's,/,_,g')"mkdir -p "${alsastatedir}/oss/"cp"${ossfile}""${alsastatedir}/oss/${device}"done
eend 0
}
start() {
if [ "${RESTORE_ON_START}" = "yes" ]; then
restore
fireturn 0
}
stop() {
if [ "${SAVE_ON_STOP}" = "yes" ]; then
save
fireturn 0
}
That’s definitely longer than a systemd service, but you’d have to write an awful lot of them to be more code than all of systemd. Overall the entire /etc/init.d folder on my PC where all the init scripts even for the stuff I’m not using are stored is a grand total of 147.7 KiB. Not exactly an unmanageable amount of code, in my humble opinion.
Its certainly easier to read than most old init scripts and I can see why some distros and openbsd would pick it over systemd for more control. I’m not likely to pick a distro that uses it anytime soon, but i can see why some do.
That’s totally fair. I’m not some weird evangelist or anything. I just like options and think OpenRC is kinda neat. There’s nothing wrong with systemd, and honestly it’s more work using other options. Not for the actual init system, but for some of the other stuff systemd does. I’ve had to learn cron, and that has been… interesting. It feels like all of the documentation around cron just assumes you already know how cron works. I’m still not sure if I’m doing it right, but I’ve had a good time and my computer works, and really that’s good enough for me.
The luddites were right though, technology was being used to lessen their quality of life and make them dependent on a new set of structures that they weren’t familiar with and which were failing them on a massive scale…
People don’t oppose technology because they’re irredeemable backwards imbeciles who hate progress, they oppose it because they see it as having a negative impact on their lives.
In the specific example you invoked as a pejorative, people destroyed mills because they saw them as part of a system of control that was forcing them into cities where life was much worse. Years later that period in British history was called the enclosures and it’s been studied endlessly from a bunch of angles, almost all of which showed the Luddite assessment to be correct.
I know you just wanted to use the funny word to ridicule people who don’t like systemd, but it doesn’t mean what you think it means and makes you look dumber than if you had just ripped off a long string of slurs against sysv script users.
I’d like to propose a new rule for this community:
More lines of semi-reliable init scripts have been written by package maintainers, than lines of systemd code by Poettering & Co, and that while achieving far less. The old init systems might have been simple, the hell of init scripts wasn’t.
That might have been true a decade ago. I don’t actually know. I do know that modern init scripts for modern alternatives to systemd are barely longer than systemd service scripts though. So that’s kind of an insane take.
can you give examples of some? Not trying to bd sarcastic, i do just want to see what alternatives are doing.
Sure, that seems pretty reasonable. Here’s the init script for sddm:
#!/usr/bin/openrc-run supervisor=supervise-daemon command="/usr/bin/sddm" depend() { need localmount after bootmisc consolefont modules netmount after ypbind autofs openvpn gpm lircmd after quota keymaps before alsasound want logind use xfs provide xdm display-manager }That’s it. That’s the whole thing.
That’s a pretty simple one though, so here’s Alsa. It’s a more complex one:
code
#!/usr/bin/openrc-run # Copyright 1999-2019 Gentoo Authors # Distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License v2 alsastatedir=/var/lib/alsa alsascrdir=/etc/alsa.d alsahomedir=/run/alsasound extra_commands="save restore" depend() { need localmount after bootmisc modules isapnp coldplug hotplug } restore() { ebegin "Restoring Mixer Levels" checkpath -q -d -m 0700 -o root:root ${alsahomedir} || return 1 if [ ! -r "${alsastatedir}/asound.state" ] ; then ewarn "No mixer config in ${alsastatedir}/asound.state, you have to unmute your card!" eend 0 return 0 fi local cards="$(sed -n -e 's/^ *\([[:digit:]]*\) .*/\1/p' /proc/asound/cards)" local CARDNUM for cardnum in ${cards}; do [ -e /dev/snd/controlC${cardnum} ] || sleep 2 [ -e /dev/snd/controlC${cardnum} ] || sleep 2 [ -e /dev/snd/controlC${cardnum} ] || sleep 2 [ -e /dev/snd/controlC${cardnum} ] || sleep 2 alsactl -E HOME="${alsahomedir}" -I -f "${alsastatedir}/asound.state" restore ${cardnum} \ || ewarn "Errors while restoring defaults, ignoring" done for ossfile in "${alsastatedir}"/oss/card*_pcm* ; do [ -e "${ossfile}" ] || continue # We use cat because I'm not sure if cp works properly on /proc local procfile=${ossfile##${alsastatedir}/oss} procfile="$(echo "${procfile}" | sed -e 's,_,/,g')" if [ -e /proc/asound/"${procfile}"/oss ] ; then cat "${ossfile}" > /proc/asound/"${procfile}"/oss fi done eend 0 } save() { ebegin "Storing ALSA Mixer Levels" checkpath -q -d -m 0700 -o root:root ${alsahomedir} || return 1 mkdir -p "${alsastatedir}" if ! alsactl -E HOME="${alsahomedir}" -f "${alsastatedir}/asound.state" store; then eerror "Error saving levels." eend 1 return 1 fi for ossfile in /proc/asound/card*/pcm*/oss; do [ -e "${ossfile}" ] || continue local device=${ossfile##/proc/asound/} ; device=${device%%/oss} device="$(echo "${device}" | sed -e 's,/,_,g')" mkdir -p "${alsastatedir}/oss/" cp "${ossfile}" "${alsastatedir}/oss/${device}" done eend 0 } start() { if [ "${RESTORE_ON_START}" = "yes" ]; then restore fi return 0 } stop() { if [ "${SAVE_ON_STOP}" = "yes" ]; then save fi return 0 }That’s definitely longer than a systemd service, but you’d have to write an awful lot of them to be more code than all of systemd. Overall the entire /etc/init.d folder on my PC where all the init scripts even for the stuff I’m not using are stored is a grand total of 147.7 KiB. Not exactly an unmanageable amount of code, in my humble opinion.
Its certainly easier to read than most old init scripts and I can see why some distros and openbsd would pick it over systemd for more control. I’m not likely to pick a distro that uses it anytime soon, but i can see why some do.
That’s totally fair. I’m not some weird evangelist or anything. I just like options and think OpenRC is kinda neat. There’s nothing wrong with systemd, and honestly it’s more work using other options. Not for the actual init system, but for some of the other stuff systemd does. I’ve had to learn cron, and that has been… interesting. It feels like all of the documentation around cron just assumes you already know how cron works. I’m still not sure if I’m doing it right, but I’ve had a good time and my computer works, and really that’s good enough for me.
Almost looks like something taken from ASL linux.
OK luddite.
Luddites were champions of the working class and have been smeared by capitalist for over a century. I’d be proud to be called a Luddite.
(In before history nerds um, actually me: chill…I know)
OK commie.
Aww sweetie. You’re cute.
I am. A lot of people fail to see that.
The luddites were right though, technology was being used to lessen their quality of life and make them dependent on a new set of structures that they weren’t familiar with and which were failing them on a massive scale…
Cope harder.
It’s not cope to know history.
People don’t oppose technology because they’re irredeemable backwards imbeciles who hate progress, they oppose it because they see it as having a negative impact on their lives.
In the specific example you invoked as a pejorative, people destroyed mills because they saw them as part of a system of control that was forcing them into cities where life was much worse. Years later that period in British history was called the enclosures and it’s been studied endlessly from a bunch of angles, almost all of which showed the Luddite assessment to be correct.
I know you just wanted to use the funny word to ridicule people who don’t like systemd, but it doesn’t mean what you think it means and makes you look dumber than if you had just ripped off a long string of slurs against sysv script users.
Good. Goood. I Can Feel Your Anger. It Gives You Focus, Makes You Stronger.