It also says that the militia should be well regulated. Assuming that militia is all able bodied adults, it is currently entirely un-regulated.
It is not unregulated. We are subject to every regulation that Congress has deemed necessary and proper to impose on the “Unorganized class” of the militia. (10 USC §246).
If you don’t feel that the regulations on that class of the militia are appropriate, it is your responsibility to inform your representatives, and to ask them to subject you to those regulations that you believe are “necessary and proper” to ensure you can fulfill your militia obligations.
What regulations do you want to subject yourself to?
We could restrict ownership to one assault rifle per militia member*,
Nope.
Article I allows regulation of the militia, not their weapons. Second amendment prohibits infringement on your right to keep and bear arms. You cannot be restricted to a single firearm, or only one of a certain type.
and have a licensing program that requires a training course.
Nope. You can require every militia member attend that training course, but you cannot make gun ownership contingent on having done so.
You can criminally prosecute those who refuse to attend that mandated militia training course, and upon conviction, you can strip them of certain rights and privileges, including the right to keep and bear arms. But first you have to mandate that everyone attend such a course, and legislate a legitimate penalty for failure to attend.
I notice you’re not arguing for any of that.
The only one of those I would argue for is regulation of negligent discharge, but I don’t have to: negligent discharges are already heavily regulated. You can easily find yourself in violation of existing law for negligently discharging your firearm. None of the other regulations you proposed make you any more prepared to enforce law, suppress insurrection, or repel invasion.
The only regulation I would propose would be mandated training on the laws governing use of force. These laws don’t seem to be common knowledge among the general public. Too many people conflate an employer’s “appeasement” policy with legality.
Article I allows regulation of the militia, not their weapons
Why not? This is hair splitting exercise.
You can require every militia member attend that training course, but you cannot make gun ownership contingent on having done so.
Why not? We have mandatory training for vehicles, but we can’t have them for guns?
It is not unregulated
Yes, it is.
Regulation would included licensing, training, drills, and organization. People like you, the gun lobby, and an entire industry of manufacturers are working to keep that from happening. Claiming all able-bodied citizens as militia is a polite fiction that you use in order to avoid regulation. See your responses above if you want examples of what this looks like.
I’ve owned a lot of guns. Right now, I have three- an AR-15, a 9mm pistol, and a derringer. I have never bought a gun in a gun store or had to register a firearm. I’ve never had a background check run for any of them. I’ve never been licensed. I’ve never had to attend a class. I can get more guns whenever I want- that’s what no regulation looks like.
You have repeatedly told me that I should contact my representative, a representative who will blow me off with a form letter because he doesn’t represent my interests, or the interests of everyday citizens who just want to not get shot.
He represents you and people like you.
None of the other regulations you proposed make you any more prepared to enforce law, suppress insurrection, or repel invasion.
Yes, they do. One rifle is all that is necessary for one soldier- there is a reason troops aren’t issued multiple weapons. One caliber allows soldiers to share ammunition. Mandatory training ensures they’re skilled with the weapon. Regular drills will keep those skills sharp. Physical fitness tests would make sure the soldier is physically prepared for combat.
You want everyone to train for war, then let’s do that. Or we can admit that claiming everyone is military is a ploy to avoid any restrictions on gun ownership.
Regulation would included licensing, training, drills, and organization.
Nobody has proposed militia training, militia drills, militia organization. Gun owners have been opposed to “licensing”, but “licensing” is not a “militia” regulation, but a “gun owner” regulation. Require all members of the militia to become “licensed”, and we can talk.
If all citizens are part of the militia then regulation of the militia is the same thing as regulation of gun owners. These are not two different groups of people, or two different types of regulation. When I say “licensing” I’m advocating essentially what any military does before they put a weapon in a soldier’s hands- training, and a record of that training, as a pre-condition to arming and deploying a soldier.
The two groups are not the same. “Militia” includes both gun owners and gun non-owners. You are attempting to impose rules only on gun owners. You cannot do that.
You can establish training requirements, drill weekends, firearms proficiency standards on the militia, but not as a condition of owning guns. You cannot impose them on gun owners alone.
If you actually read Article I, Section 8 parts 15 and 16, as well as the 2nd amendment, you would know exactly why not. Article 1 can be used to compel training and provide arms; it cannot be used to infringe on the right to keep and bear.
As for your physical fitness, weapons training, and other conditions, they would be far less stringent than my own standards, and will not improve my readiness. I foresee no threat sufficient to justify that degree of intrusion on the average citizen, not the expense it would take to enforce.
I can justify mandatory training on use of force, but not the rest of what you propose.
If you actually read Article I, Section 8 parts 15 and 16, as well as the 2nd amendment, you would know exactly why not. Article 1 can be used to compel training and provide arms; it cannot be used to infringe on the right to keep and bear.
I have read them, and I agree with them. If you’re in the militia, you should absolutely be able to keep and bear arms. If you’re in the militia. You’re arguing that everyone is in the militia, and therefore should be able to keep and bear arms, while simultaneously arguing that the militia shouldn’t be required to do anything to maintain readiness.
Like require members to demonstrate proficiency with their weapon in order to remain members.
I foresee no threat sufficient to justify that degree of intrusion on the average citizen, not the expense it would take to enforce.
If you see no threat that requires a militia to maintain readiness, then why have a militia at all?
You’re arguing that everyone is in the militia, and therefore should be able to keep and bear arms, while simultaneously arguing that the militia shouldn’t be required to do anything to maintain readiness.
The militia should be required to do exactly what Congress seems “necessary and proper” for the militia to do. What constitutes “necessary and proper” is up to Congress to decide, and Congress answers to their constituents.
Like require members to demonstrate proficiency with their weapon in order to remain members.
The constitution recognizes the militia, it does not define the militia or its members. “Membership” in the militia is conferred by birth. Congress can define when a person can be “called forth”, but they do not have the power to eject a member of the constitutional militia.
The militia is the people. Declaring someone to not be in the militia is declaring them to not be a person.
If you see no threat that requires a militia to maintain readiness, then why have a militia at all?
I did not claim there was no threat at all. I claimed no foreseeable threat was sufficient to justify your measures.
The constitution recognizes the militia, it does not define the militia or its members. “Membership” in the militia is conferred by birth
The militia is the people. Declaring someone to not be in the militia is declaring them to not be a person.
A militia is a group of civilians organized as a military force. Like any military force, it requires training, testing, and equipment. It isn’t some immutable, intrinsic attribute, and if you believe that, then I’m not sure what more we have to talk about.
You’re using a fairly recent definition of the word, and not the constitutional meaning. Today, “militia” generally means “a privately organized paramilitary unit”. You’re suggesting a publicly-organized unit; that would more properly be described as an “army”.
But this is not at all how the Constitution uses the word. We know this from the contemporary writings of the founding fathers, the principles of democracy, and from contextual clues within the constitution itself.
First of all, “militia” is never used in the plural. There is only one militia considered by the constitution. That might seem pedantic, but it is an important concept. It does reference “parts” of the militia, but the second amendment does not say that the security of a free state is provided by a “part” of the militia.
Second, compare and contrast the powers Congress has over “armies”, the “Navy” and the “militia”. Congress can “raise” armies, and “provide” a Navy. They can create these military entities. They don’t create the militia. They “call forth” the militia. The militia continues to exist, whether Congress chooses to call it forth or not. Eliminate Congress, eliminate the constitution entirely, and the militia still remains.
Third, “democracy” is the fundamental idea that the source of power is “the people”, not “the government” or “a king” or “a god”. “Militia” refers to the capacity of the people to use physical force.
We know this from the contemporary writings of the founding fathers…
Find me some.
Use of the word “militia”
First of all, “militia” is never used in the plural…
This is some sovereign citizen level pedantry. For anyone reading this who doesn’t know, sovereign citizens are people in the US who, to quote wikipedia:
…have their own pseudolegal belief system based on misinterpretations of common law and claim to not be subject to any government statutes, unless they consent to them…
Claiming that the founders deliberately didn’t use the plural form “militias”, and that this use suggests that they believed in one immutable, intrinsic militia in which all Americans are members, is a ridiculous leap.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State…
State is also singular here. Are we to take it that the founders believed being a member of the state was also an intrinsic aspect of a person, such that-
Declaring someone to not be in the militiastate is declaring them to not be a person
-While they were trying to extricate themselves from a state and form their own nation?
In addition to the lack of a plural, you also believe (apparently) that by saying they “call forth” the militia, the founding documents and others are implying that it is preexisting, and that they simply summon the militia, like some demonic entity. Here’s Alexander Hamilton, writing in the Federalist Papers:
a well regulated militia, composed of the Yeomanry of the country, have ever been considered as the bulwark of a free people.
The militia is made up of the yeomanry, which are a land holding class between the gentry and serfs. Why would it be necessary to state that the militia was made up of the yeomanry, if he was aware that it was made up of everyone, from birth? Maybe because it’s a loosely organized fighting force that’s formed as necessary to defend the country, and not a permanent state of being.
So your first two points are really the same point- that there are small turns of phrase in the founding documents, which you wish to interpret to fit your preconceived views.
Onward!
Democracy, yadda yadda
Third, “democracy” is the fundamental idea that the source of power is “the people”, not “the government” or “a king” or “a god”. “Militia” refers to the capacity of the people to use physical force.
Sure. You could say it that way.
A militia is a way in which a people use force. So is an army, or an air force, or a navy. Some of our citizens volunteer to commit violence on our behalf, and we pay them (ideally) and send them forth to do it.
The way in which you use the words here, and the fact that something so obviously, trivially true is part of your main three points, tells me that they have some ideological weight for you. These are applause lights.
What does it mean to call for a “democratic” solution if you don’t have a conflict-resolution mechanism in mind? […] you have said the word “democracy,” so the audience is supposed to cheer. It’s not so much a propositional statement or belief, as the equivalent of the “Applause” light that tells a studio audience when to clap.
Unfortunately, I don’t clap just because you said the right words.
And finally, the real problem
Even if we take all of your weirdly specific pedantry at face value, even if we decide that the Militia (note the capitals, and the singular usage) is something you are born into- it’s still not true.
Because we’re not all in the militia, are we? I doubt the founders would have considered women, children, blacks, or native americans to be part of the Militia. Moving forward to the present day, we have a wide variety of pacifists and rugged individualists, who would object, respectively, to harming others for any reason at all, or harming others for anyone but themselves.
Who gets to decide where the lines are for this intrinsic Militia-ness? The founders? The founders would have excluded lots of people. The militia themselves? A huge chunk of the left in US politics would exclude themselves from that label.
You?
I don’t trust anyone who grounds their opinion on such a pivotal part of American politics in their obscure, pedantic interpretation of the founding documents.
The militia is made up of the yeomanry, which are a land holding class between the gentry and serfs.
You quote, but you do not realize: the nation they were establishing had no gentry, and no serfs. The “yeomanry” he was referring to was “everyone” in the “new world.”
A militia is a way in which a people use force. So is an army, or an air force, or a navy
No. An Army is a way in which the state uses force. Likewise with a Navy or Air Force.
Because we’re not all in the militia, are we? I doubt the founders would have considered women, children, blacks, or native americans to be part of the Militia.
I agree that they did not expect Congress to explicitly call forth women, children, blacks, or Indians. However, If they saw a woman using a weapon against at invading Redcoats, or at criminal attackers, or at an insurrectionist, they would have described her actions as those of the militia.
I would point out that the current legislative definition (10 USC§246) includes “children” (age 17) as well as certain women (female members of the National Guard), and excludes neither blacks nor native Americans.
The legislative definition is a subset of the constitutional meaning. Congress cannot include you in the legislative definition unless you already fit within the constitutional meaning.
Who gets to decide where the lines are for this intrinsic Militia-ness?
No such line exists. Everyone is the militia.
A huge chunk of the left in US politics would exclude themselves from that label.
It is not unregulated. We are subject to every regulation that Congress has deemed necessary and proper to impose on the “Unorganized class” of the militia. (10 USC §246).
If you don’t feel that the regulations on that class of the militia are appropriate, it is your responsibility to inform your representatives, and to ask them to subject you to those regulations that you believe are “necessary and proper” to ensure you can fulfill your militia obligations.
What regulations do you want to subject yourself to?
Nope.
Article I allows regulation of the militia, not their weapons. Second amendment prohibits infringement on your right to keep and bear arms. You cannot be restricted to a single firearm, or only one of a certain type.
Nope. You can require every militia member attend that training course, but you cannot make gun ownership contingent on having done so.
You can criminally prosecute those who refuse to attend that mandated militia training course, and upon conviction, you can strip them of certain rights and privileges, including the right to keep and bear arms. But first you have to mandate that everyone attend such a course, and legislate a legitimate penalty for failure to attend.
The only one of those I would argue for is regulation of negligent discharge, but I don’t have to: negligent discharges are already heavily regulated. You can easily find yourself in violation of existing law for negligently discharging your firearm. None of the other regulations you proposed make you any more prepared to enforce law, suppress insurrection, or repel invasion.
The only regulation I would propose would be mandated training on the laws governing use of force. These laws don’t seem to be common knowledge among the general public. Too many people conflate an employer’s “appeasement” policy with legality.
Why not? This is hair splitting exercise.
Why not? We have mandatory training for vehicles, but we can’t have them for guns?
Yes, it is.
Regulation would included licensing, training, drills, and organization. People like you, the gun lobby, and an entire industry of manufacturers are working to keep that from happening. Claiming all able-bodied citizens as militia is a polite fiction that you use in order to avoid regulation. See your responses above if you want examples of what this looks like.
I’ve owned a lot of guns. Right now, I have three- an AR-15, a 9mm pistol, and a derringer. I have never bought a gun in a gun store or had to register a firearm. I’ve never had a background check run for any of them. I’ve never been licensed. I’ve never had to attend a class. I can get more guns whenever I want- that’s what no regulation looks like.
You have repeatedly told me that I should contact my representative, a representative who will blow me off with a form letter because he doesn’t represent my interests, or the interests of everyday citizens who just want to not get shot.
He represents you and people like you.
Yes, they do. One rifle is all that is necessary for one soldier- there is a reason troops aren’t issued multiple weapons. One caliber allows soldiers to share ammunition. Mandatory training ensures they’re skilled with the weapon. Regular drills will keep those skills sharp. Physical fitness tests would make sure the soldier is physically prepared for combat.
You want everyone to train for war, then let’s do that. Or we can admit that claiming everyone is military is a ploy to avoid any restrictions on gun ownership.
Nobody has proposed militia training, militia drills, militia organization. Gun owners have been opposed to “licensing”, but “licensing” is not a “militia” regulation, but a “gun owner” regulation. Require all members of the militia to become “licensed”, and we can talk.
If all citizens are part of the militia then regulation of the militia is the same thing as regulation of gun owners. These are not two different groups of people, or two different types of regulation. When I say “licensing” I’m advocating essentially what any military does before they put a weapon in a soldier’s hands- training, and a record of that training, as a pre-condition to arming and deploying a soldier.
The two groups are not the same. “Militia” includes both gun owners and gun non-owners. You are attempting to impose rules only on gun owners. You cannot do that.
You can establish training requirements, drill weekends, firearms proficiency standards on the militia, but not as a condition of owning guns. You cannot impose them on gun owners alone.
If you actually read Article I, Section 8 parts 15 and 16, as well as the 2nd amendment, you would know exactly why not. Article 1 can be used to compel training and provide arms; it cannot be used to infringe on the right to keep and bear.
As for your physical fitness, weapons training, and other conditions, they would be far less stringent than my own standards, and will not improve my readiness. I foresee no threat sufficient to justify that degree of intrusion on the average citizen, not the expense it would take to enforce.
I can justify mandatory training on use of force, but not the rest of what you propose.
I have read them, and I agree with them. If you’re in the militia, you should absolutely be able to keep and bear arms. If you’re in the militia. You’re arguing that everyone is in the militia, and therefore should be able to keep and bear arms, while simultaneously arguing that the militia shouldn’t be required to do anything to maintain readiness.
Like require members to demonstrate proficiency with their weapon in order to remain members.
If you see no threat that requires a militia to maintain readiness, then why have a militia at all?
The militia should be required to do exactly what Congress seems “necessary and proper” for the militia to do. What constitutes “necessary and proper” is up to Congress to decide, and Congress answers to their constituents.
The constitution recognizes the militia, it does not define the militia or its members. “Membership” in the militia is conferred by birth. Congress can define when a person can be “called forth”, but they do not have the power to eject a member of the constitutional militia.
The militia is the people. Declaring someone to not be in the militia is declaring them to not be a person.
I did not claim there was no threat at all. I claimed no foreseeable threat was sufficient to justify your measures.
A militia is a group of civilians organized as a military force. Like any military force, it requires training, testing, and equipment. It isn’t some immutable, intrinsic attribute, and if you believe that, then I’m not sure what more we have to talk about.
The idea is nonsense.
You’re using a fairly recent definition of the word, and not the constitutional meaning. Today, “militia” generally means “a privately organized paramilitary unit”. You’re suggesting a publicly-organized unit; that would more properly be described as an “army”.
But this is not at all how the Constitution uses the word. We know this from the contemporary writings of the founding fathers, the principles of democracy, and from contextual clues within the constitution itself.
First of all, “militia” is never used in the plural. There is only one militia considered by the constitution. That might seem pedantic, but it is an important concept. It does reference “parts” of the militia, but the second amendment does not say that the security of a free state is provided by a “part” of the militia.
Second, compare and contrast the powers Congress has over “armies”, the “Navy” and the “militia”. Congress can “raise” armies, and “provide” a Navy. They can create these military entities. They don’t create the militia. They “call forth” the militia. The militia continues to exist, whether Congress chooses to call it forth or not. Eliminate Congress, eliminate the constitution entirely, and the militia still remains.
Third, “democracy” is the fundamental idea that the source of power is “the people”, not “the government” or “a king” or “a god”. “Militia” refers to the capacity of the people to use physical force.
Find me some.
Use of the word “militia”
This is some sovereign citizen level pedantry. For anyone reading this who doesn’t know, sovereign citizens are people in the US who, to quote wikipedia:
Claiming that the founders deliberately didn’t use the plural form “militias”, and that this use suggests that they believed in one immutable, intrinsic militia in which all Americans are members, is a ridiculous leap.
State is also singular here. Are we to take it that the founders believed being a member of the state was also an intrinsic aspect of a person, such that-
-While they were trying to extricate themselves from a state and form their own nation?
In addition to the lack of a plural, you also believe (apparently) that by saying they “call forth” the militia, the founding documents and others are implying that it is preexisting, and that they simply summon the militia, like some demonic entity. Here’s Alexander Hamilton, writing in the Federalist Papers:
The militia is made up of the yeomanry, which are a land holding class between the gentry and serfs. Why would it be necessary to state that the militia was made up of the yeomanry, if he was aware that it was made up of everyone, from birth? Maybe because it’s a loosely organized fighting force that’s formed as necessary to defend the country, and not a permanent state of being.
So your first two points are really the same point- that there are small turns of phrase in the founding documents, which you wish to interpret to fit your preconceived views.
Onward!
Democracy, yadda yadda
Sure. You could say it that way.
A militia is a way in which a people use force. So is an army, or an air force, or a navy. Some of our citizens volunteer to commit violence on our behalf, and we pay them (ideally) and send them forth to do it.
The way in which you use the words here, and the fact that something so obviously, trivially true is part of your main three points, tells me that they have some ideological weight for you. These are applause lights.
Unfortunately, I don’t clap just because you said the right words.
And finally, the real problem
Even if we take all of your weirdly specific pedantry at face value, even if we decide that the Militia (note the capitals, and the singular usage) is something you are born into- it’s still not true.
Because we’re not all in the militia, are we? I doubt the founders would have considered women, children, blacks, or native americans to be part of the Militia. Moving forward to the present day, we have a wide variety of pacifists and rugged individualists, who would object, respectively, to harming others for any reason at all, or harming others for anyone but themselves.
Who gets to decide where the lines are for this intrinsic Militia-ness? The founders? The founders would have excluded lots of people. The militia themselves? A huge chunk of the left in US politics would exclude themselves from that label.
You?
I don’t trust anyone who grounds their opinion on such a pivotal part of American politics in their obscure, pedantic interpretation of the founding documents.
Sorry.
You quote, but you do not realize: the nation they were establishing had no gentry, and no serfs. The “yeomanry” he was referring to was “everyone” in the “new world.”
No. An Army is a way in which the state uses force. Likewise with a Navy or Air Force.
I agree that they did not expect Congress to explicitly call forth women, children, blacks, or Indians. However, If they saw a woman using a weapon against at invading Redcoats, or at criminal attackers, or at an insurrectionist, they would have described her actions as those of the militia.
I would point out that the current legislative definition (10 USC§246) includes “children” (age 17) as well as certain women (female members of the National Guard), and excludes neither blacks nor native Americans.
The legislative definition is a subset of the constitutional meaning. Congress cannot include you in the legislative definition unless you already fit within the constitutional meaning.
No such line exists. Everyone is the militia.
That “chunk” deludes itself.