Or maybe they will launch Win 12 with optional TPM support.
Imho making the OS(es) TPM only cannot be good for their business, many people are still on Win 10 with no intention to switch, since their motheboard does not support TPM and do not want to upgrade PC / waste PCI-E slot on TPM extension.
If I was not using my PC for gaming also, I would probably say fuck them and be on Linux too. But gaming on Linux is cancer.
Your information is outdated
Gaming on Windows just works, gaming on Linux can work but might be problematic with some hardware (as is the case with OP based on another comment they made), let’s not pretend it’s as easy.
I probably wouldn’t call it cancer, seems quite loaded, but gaming on Linux still has its snags even if performance on it its better. Like you and OP said, hardware is a big issue, but also some gaming-oriented creature comforts like a proper platform for recording/screenshotting. Steam has screenshotting but not recording AFAIK, Yes, OBS exists, but let’s be real - it’s clunky to set up because it’s not meant to be a game recorder, it’s meant to be broadcasting software. On Windows, it will detect a running game automatically and let you record. Someone did send me another piece of software that’s simpler, but it doesn’t support Wayland. The transition from X11 to Wayland is affecting a lot of software like this, and Windows just doesn’t have this issue.
I still don’t really understand the reason for switching to Wayland, especially since it sounds like it’s still rather half baked even after all this time
As far as I know, the protocol is pretty much standardised and it’s now up to the desktop environments to support and implement it, and that transition took a lot of time. GNOME has already been there and on its way to winding down X11 support, KDE has also been building up its Wayland support too. Waydroid (Android container software) requires it, and Valve uses it for Gamescope on SteamOS too iirc, to give games a more predictable place to render themselves on. Everyone’s got a kick up the ass with regards to Wayland support recently, but for smaller, independent/non-corp backed or niche software, of course, it’s gonna take a bit longer.
More than it being half baked, it’s that is not a drop in replacement. It works differently, on purpose. So DEs, apps and even drivers (looking at you Nvidia) need to make changes to adapt to it.
For example apps that user screen sharing had to be reworked, because X11 allowed any app to just see the screen without any user action (I think Windows also does this, Android and iOS require at least a one time permission), but Wayland doesn’t allow that as it’s a security/privacy risk.
I guess I really should dig into it and understand it better… It and systemd aren’t going away so I should just bite the bullet and learn them
It’s kinda like IPv6.
Having recently switched myself I actually have experienced less issues and better game performance from Linux than I did on Windows, at least with the games I play and the hardware I have.
Definitely not what I would call cancer
“at least with the games I play”
As mentioned in a recent article that was shared around here, for the games that work on Linux performance on average is 17% better, for the games that don’t work on Linux, performance is infinitely better on Windows 😛
For sure, but these days the main offenders are online multiplayer games with restrictive anti-cheats.
I would go so far as to say if those specific types of games are not your thing you aren’t likely to experience any issues gaming on Linux.
I’m sure there are exceptions, but every time I think “oh this game for sure won’t work” I have eaten my words.
And it’s like a night and day difference from the last time I tried to do this about a year and a half ago. The progress I’ve seen is almost more impressive than the performance gains. 🤷
But if you switch to Linux for gaming, and the game you want to play doesn’t work… Well it’s not like you can trade that 17% performance improvement in to get the game to function.
That’s a huge roadblock if you don’t know what games won’t work.
Yeah I mean if the game you want to play doesn’t work then maybe Linux isn’t for you, at least not at this time.
Not saying you have to switch.
Just that my personal experience with it has been very good, better than I expected, and way better than my previous experience not long ago.
As others have mentioned, you can check the status of your preferred games on websites like ProtonDB beforehand, you don’t have to format your Windows drive and install Linux before finding out if your games will work.
There’s websites where you can check if a game can be played on Linux. For me personally I know a game I play a fair bit won’t work on linux for a fact, and most of the stuff I need I can get to work on Windows just fine.
You can always dual boot for those games … A pain, I know, but doable.
Might even be able to run it on VM, especially if you set up a type 2 hypervisor. Again, that’s it’s own pain, but really should only be that on initially getting it to work rather than every time
But if I have to have a full Windows installation that I need to keep up to date, with the full setup of drivers and other software that I need to run games, what advantage does an average person (not software dev/IT enthusiast) have from running a second OS for the things that do work on both OSes?
It’s kinda like saying “This racing kit car is amazingly fast, you can tinker on it and reconfigure it, and for everything that you can’t do in the kit car, you can just keep a family minivan around”.
That’s nice for a racing/car enthusiast. But most people just want one car to do all they need.
I have had no issues either, but setting a PC up for my little sister I quickly realized that for her it was a lot different. Games like Fortnite, Rainbow Six Siege and Valorant do not run.
Valorants a big one for me. If I wasn’t hopelessly addicted I’d have jumped ship on that games kernel level anti-cheat and windows all together
Some of the games I play can’t be played on Linux because of anti-cheat. One even uses a fucking kernel-mode driver on windows so it sure as hell ain’t working on linux
you got a lot of hate because Lemmy tends to be militantly pro-Linux, (it sort of goes hand-in-hand with the FOSS ideas that Lemmy is built on) but every Linux user who built their own rig has wanted to throw their computer out the fucking window while trying to get nvidia drivers to work.
Linux gamers point to the Steam Deck as the example that gaming on Linux isn’t awful… The Steam Deck is an amazing advancement, but it’s essentially just a console like the Xbox or PlayStation; It’s using a known list of hardware, with pre-installed and pre-tested drivers. As far as play-testing and QA is concerned, that’s as close as you can get to having a controlled environment. For people who build their own computers, drivers on Linux are still a fucking nightmare. You still occasionally have to fight with them just to get modern games working.
It’s better than it used to be, for sure. But it’s nowhere near as easy as many people want to claim. Especially when compared to Windows, where it usually is just plug and play. Microsoft can suck a chode for their invasive and monopolistic practices, but those same practices are also what led to gaming being so fucking easy on Windows. You buy the game, you install the game, and the game boots up first try. Because companies test for Windows. They know what to expect from Windows. They know how hardware will perform on Windows, and what the potential pitfalls will be. None of that is true for Linux, where the OS varies just as much as the user’s hardware.
I do genuinely believe it will continue to get better. But people who go “lol gaming on Linux is ezpz” aren’t doing Linux any favors. Because if someone hears that, tries it, and finds out it isn’t easy? They’ll be much more inclined to just go “fuck it, I tried and it didn’t work so it must not be for me” and default back to Windows.
My AMD desktop provides an almost identical user experience to the deck, just with more power. The problem isn’t Linux, it’s Nvidia not making a driver that actually works. Nvidia has always been hostile to gaming on Linux, desktop Linux users in general.
You can install any OS on the deck, it’s commodity hardware shoved into a handheld. Not a locked down device like a console.
I’ve built all my desktops and none of them ran Linux poorly, played lots of games. I’ve been gaming on Linux since my only option was unreal tournament.
Anti cheat is a show stopper for many Linux games though, if you are big into multiplayer games you might be disappointed to find out your favorite game blocks Linux users because reasons. Games outside of steam will require more work to get running, because steam does the heavy lifting for you.
There are also other edge cases where it doesn’t work great, like with CAD software. But Nvidia making garbage tier drivers has done more harm to the perception of Linux gaming than everything else combined.
One thing that people seem to dismiss, running windows games on Linux is fuckin magic. It’s not normal for an OS to be able to run another systems applications.
You are right with what you are saying, but for an average user it doesn’t matter who’s fault it is that their hardware and the OS don’t play nice together.
If they have Nvidia and it works perfectly out of the box on Windows, but not on Linux, it really doesn’t matter whether it’s the fault of Linux or Nvidia.
And sure, if you are buying a new device to run Linux on it, you can use that info to buy an ATI card that works better.
But more often than not people are switching from Windows to Linux on their existing hardware. Mostly because something doesn’t work (e.g. receiving updates on Win10 past 2024), and they’d rather switch OS than buy a new PC.
My problem is people saying Linux isn’t ready because Nvidia provides a terrible experience, and they are basing that opinion on their personal experience with Nvidias gpu drivers. Using any other gpu provides an experience so close to the deck that it’s not even a talking point.
No OS is perfect, Linux has problems, but Nvidia makes people think it’s a mess.
I think, there is another underlying problem, and that is that many Linux users are overly defensive about their OS.
If Windows frequently bluescreens due to a driver, people also say that Windows sucks. But I’ve never seen a single instance where then a more experienced Windows user says “You are wrong, Windows is great, it’s just the manufacturer of the hardware who is at fault.”
To an average user, there is no difference between OS, drivers or even user space software.
And, tbh, if the system doesn’t run correctly (no matter which part of it) nobody really cares who is at fault. Because it’s not about putting blame on someone, but rather about the user wanting to do something and it doesn’t work.
For a bad comparison: Imagine you got a new car and directly after the warranty expired, the motor breaks down and needs to be replaced.
Would you then say “The car is ok, it’s just the supplier of the sealing rings of the piston who sucks”?
I’d rather say, “This car sucks”.
I keep seeing these comments about Nvidia making shit fall apart for Linux, but I’ve been going strong for several years with Nvidia GPUs without problems. I also didn’t have any issues with AMD either mind you, but I have swapped GPU’s three times in this system: from Nvidia to AMD and back to Nvidia. I must have some great luck as I doubt these commenters are lying.
Totally agreed. It was a chore setting up gpu switching in my Nvidia + AMD igpu laptop. There were times where a gold rated game didn’t work or was basically unplayable for me (Teardown, but it’s working now). Haven’t found a just werks autohotkey script (needed for Danganronpa, played on Win instead bc of it). Bluetooth connectivity has it’s quirks, etc. These small things add up, so yeah Linux still needs a lot of ironing for me to recommend it beyond web browsing.
In my personal experience, drivers and basically everything where more straight forward (I’m on an Nvidia card). Just boot and run with significantly better performance than windows. On my crappy laptop with only integrated GPU same thing. Maybe because I don’t play any anti cheat games. Also in the indie sector there is a bit more effort on proton compatibility, basically all I have tried just work.
Drivers aren’t really an issue anymore either…
As long as you choose AMD. If you look at the Steam Hardware Survey, Linux users have very different purchasing patterns.
Hybrid gpu laptops: I’m about to ruin this man’s whole career
I have a dual GPU laptop 🤷
I guess your experience must be universal and everyone who has issues must be really dumb. Is that how you see the world?
Ahm, you okay buddy?
I have a dual GPU laptop with an AMD base and an Nvidia GPU.
Hasn’t been a problem at all (though it certainly was when I tried a year and a half ago)
Saying gaming on Linux is caner is “hate”? Lol
Come on. Go look at forums, communities, etc and see how much effort people have to put in to Linux at times just to get sound working properly, and that’s before a game is even loaded.
Just look at comments here, with problems you never see on windows.
Linux still has these issues, though they’ve gotten tremendously better.
When’s the last time you loaded windows and sound didn’t work out of the gate?
Windows just works, that’s what OP is on about. He wants to play games, not play “what isn’t working in my OS now?”.
This is also part of what drives the console market - people just want to play their game.
The Linux community can be blind about these barriers for tee average user. Yea, you can lookup and learn commands, where stuff goes, etc. But by god is that a pain in the ass. You’ve gotta be sufficiently motivated about what your doing to want to get through that. And I say this as someone who had Unix classes a long time ago.
I think you misread my comment? Or I’m misreading yours. I agree with you lol
I had trouble getting Assassin’s Creed Valhalla, Cyberpunk 2077, Horizon Zero Dawn, and BG3 to open at all on Windows at various times.
All of them work great for me on Linux.
I think 99% of my issues with Windows were due to Windows Updates messing with my drivers but the point is I don’t have those problems on Linux. You never hear about Linux forcing updates that break your system.
Just last week I had to do an emergency unbrick on my linux server because of updates…
Ah but the difference is that Linux doesn’t force you to install those updates.
Even more fun when you need to do machine learning (for which linux is often the best or only option). Getting nvidia drivers to play nice is hard enough, try adding CUDA.
The irony of that is… it was easier to get it working in Windows.
It really all depends what we’re talking about when we say “gaming” tbh. Proton on Steam will run literally thousands of titles in one click, no configuration necessary, flawlessly. But thousands of titles isn’t all titles. If you’re a gamer who is happy to play what works and miss out on what doesn’t, there are enough games on Linux to keep you playing for a hundred lifetimes. But if you’ve got a specific competitive multiplayer game in mind that implements anti cheat, or you want to play all the biggest AAA releases as soon as they come out, you’re going to have a less positive experience.
And yeah, Nvidia on Linux can really suck, too. Anybody buying/building a rig with Linux in mind should steer well clear. If you’re talking about an existing machine with Nvidia then you might get lucky and have an easy straightforward time, or you might find yourself straight in at the deep end with a crash course of Linux sysadmin…
Do you only play Valorant and Rainbow 6 Siege? Most of my games work now by simply clicking Play, which wasn’t the case even 2 years ago.
There’s some bug between KDE, my Nvidia GPU, Prime, Proton and DXVK that causes my whole system to freeze (can’t even switch to console) if I try to play games with the GPU selection set to “on-demand”.
If I completely disable the Intel GPU, it runs fine, but that means I basically can’t use the laptop without a charger (because the battery drains so fast), unless I switch the GPU setting (requires a reboot) every time I want to game.
Totally fair about the laptop issues. I know sound, wifi, touchpads, fingerprint unlocks aren’t always fully compatible, and prime switcher can put up a fuss (though I remember using an alternative back in the day). I guess I’m just astounded from where I started (looking through WineHQ and GamingOnLinux forums, trying the scripts and crossing my fingers) to now, where my rig is beefy enough that a small performance hit that Proton could cause isn’t noticeable at all.
Thinking about it again, Gaming On Linux is cancerous, in the sense that it’s grown exponentially, and thanks to Valve’s support with Proton and the Steam Deck, the OS once was an afterthought for gaming has “metastasized” itself into relevancy.
Sure, it’s much better than it has been a few years ago.
But it’s still not nearly at the point where I would blindly recommend it to non-technical people and call it easy. There’s still a way to go.
On the other hand I have no problem recommending Linux to the typical “I only use an OS to run a browser” user. That wasn’t the case 5 or 10 years ago.
Anyone gonna tell him about the Steam Deck?
Not everyone wants to buy separate hardware for gaming, OP mentioned in another comment that Linux doesn’t play well with their laptop if they want to play games on it. It’s funny to see some of the Linux crowd being unable to admit that it just isn’t as plug and play as running Windows… Especially with an Nvidia GPU.
Eh? I wasn’t suggesting they buy separate hardware. I was just responding to the comment about Linux being cancer for gaming. The Steam Deck is literally proof that the OS is completely viable for gaming. I’ve been gaming just fine on my desktop with an Nvidia 3090. Linux really isn’t as bad as you think it is. It’s funny how there’s a bunch of Windows users that refuse to believe that gaming can happen on another OS. Just sounds close minded tbh.
Dude just wants Microsoft-sempai to notice him. I don’t think reason or facts are very useful
Lol.
Just look at the comments here about gaming problems on Linux.
Seriously - you never see these problems on windows these days.
“We’ll, just buy different hardware” is one answer. Imagine saying that to someone who has an extant gaming setup running windows.
You mean OP whose hardware will be obsolete for running up to date Windows and it’s on the bargaining stage of grief?
I use Linux for gaming. I have no problems nor I’ve found a game I can’t play. I know there are, just that no game I wanted to play had idea issues, and I don’t even check before buying them anymore. And I’m supposed to have bad hardware for Linux, having had Nvidia all my life.
Most comments I’ve seen are from people who haven’t tried, just parrot what others parroted.
I recall setting up wine for the original World of Warcraft. That was such a pain to do. Performance was great.
Running games on Linux now is easier than I ever could imagine. Especially with steam and the other launchers added such as Lutris.
Been rocking the game Grounded on my steam deck while my kids are on their windows machines. And it has great performance even output to 1080p monitor.
I agree it seems like most the comments are from people who haven’t even attempted to run games on it. Or maybe there attempt was just to double clicked the setup.exe and it didn’t work like windows and they threw their arms up and walked away.
Feels like ages ago interacting directly with wine. Wine tricks, Play on Linux, Crossover, Lutris, Bottles and Steam with Proton. Each one better and better and simpler than the previous.
And let’s not forget Nvidia drivers. For the past 3 years at least they are just baked into the the Distros I use, even less work to make them work than Windows.
Not so much anymore, it’s apparently improved significantly and getting better all the time. Check out linux_gaming. A lot of avid proponents there given the shitshow M$FT has made of Windows.
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I’ve got over 900 hours clocked in Apex Legends, and about 100 in Valheim. I’ve been playing multiple games from the past 5 years without any issues.
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no need to, Lutris works just as well for managing your non-Steam library.
Hmm what’s your specs?
At the same time, Baldurs Gate 3 is the most played game (in hours) on the steam deck for the past 2 months. A game that had to be delayed on Xbox because the series S couldn’t handle it.
If you see a large difference in performance Windows/Linux then dinner m something is not right. Might be Nvidia card with the open source drivers?
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It seems your igpu is being used instead of the dGPU
I have 300+ games in my Steam library, some of them with Linux builds, just a few. The rest work with Proton. I did not find a game yet that didn’t work on Linux…
I’ve found some and it sucks if the one game that doesn’t work well is one you play a lot. For me it’s Trackmania. It works some of the time but often breaks. It seems like the issue isn’t with the game itself but with Ubisoft Connect, which is pretty shit even on Windows. Very annoying.
Fortnite.
Well, it works until the server kicks you off.
No great loss there.
It’s so easy to run on Linux now. Lol what are you doing?
May I ask why you think so, Steam Deck is built on Arch Linux?
That’s what the Steam Deck is for. ;)
I game on Linux and don’t even have Windows installed. If a game doesn’t work on Linux, it isn’t worth playing so I refund/don’t get it in the first place. I’m tired of getting fucked by Windows so I’m not going to use it. At this point I just don’t care about what doesn’t work on Linux, I’m better off using it than any of the other choices anyway.