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- cross-posted to:
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My take on this is simple.
All that Money, Apple used what i can only presume to be mountainous sums of money to lawyers…to do a “miss me with that regulation”
dont forget to round up for charity on your next purchase from a multi million dollar company
I guess “multi million” is an insult for apple
I think it’s trillion dollars
Apple’s current market valuation is $3 trillion.
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Yhe mate like i said, it’s in the multi trillion dollars
I mean, they kind of are a smaller player in Europe. At least where I live, no one actually uses iMessage, and that’s probably what they’re basing their defence upon (contrary to USA where you have that whole iMessage buble crap)
What it won’t solve is the color of bubbles in iMessage, which marks Android users with green messages instead of blue and has led to a rash of teen bullying.
This is both cruel and asinine, meaning it’s probably true. I’m wishing for karma in these situations.
I’ve heard of the issue before.
Stupid? Absolutely. And it’s not just iPhones - they are part of the bigger picture. Somehow having “premium” things is huge part of your status in the US, especially among teens. And, despite the fact iPhone is owned by just about everyone in America, it’s still somehow seen as a thing compared to which Android phones are broke man’s choice.
Result? 87-88% of American teens have iPhones (1, 2), with 90% planning to make it their next choice.
It’s an extremely toxic consumer culture driving people into debt - and even if you aren’t part of it, you’ll be forced into it, otherwise your child will have issues.
Also, Apple will fight tooth and nail to distinguish users, because having access to iMessage - and now right-colored bubbles - is a big part of why Americans go Apple to begin with. It’s a local unofficial communication standard.
because having access to iMessage - and now right-colored bubbles - is a big part of why Americans go Apple to begin with.
Do you have something supporting this? I was the only iPhone user in my family years ago, now everyone in my family has one. They switched because their Androids were slow, buggy and had issues. Over time they decided to try iPhones and now their perception of iPhone is that it just works better and smoother than Android.
I think some go Apple for status, but still others go with it because they’ve personally had a better experience. For older people there’s probably also an element of support from their younger family. If their kids, grandkids etc. have iPhones then they can get help from them because they’re familiar with the device.
I use an iPhone and many other Apple products because I work in IT. I get tired of troubleshooting other people’s tech issues and I can come home and my Apple stuff all just works. I don’t think it’s the best, I actually have a Windows gaming computer and an Ubuntu box as a home server but the Apple ecosystem works well together and means I’m not still wearing my IT hat at home all the time.
The teen bullying is a social problem but it’s not that different than Starter jackets when I was in elementary school, branded sports apparel (particularly Nike) when I was in middle school, and having a pager when I was in high school.
I don’t really care what color the bubbles are when I send messages, as long as the go through.
I don’t really care what color the bubbles are when I send messages, as long as the go through.
Amen. It’s nice being an adult isn’t it?
Now don’t bother me. I’ve got cartoons to watch.
They switched because their Androids were slow, buggy and had issues.
Yeah. If they would have spent the same amount of money on a high-end Android phone, those issues would have gone away. People are always comparing cheap low and mid-level shits to iPhones. Which is not very fair. Try an S23 Ultra or a Pixel 8 Pro and tell me it’s slower than an iPhone.
If they would have spent the same amount of money
They did spend the same because they were getting the deal phones from their provider. You’ll have to bear in mind this switch was about 10 years ago.
I think what you’re saying contributes to why this Android/Apple discussion is still going on.
The level of Android device varies based on cost affecting the experience. If you buy an Apple you don’t have that issue because all their devices run relatively the same and are expensive. They don’t have a “cheap” option.
and now right-colored bubbles - is a big part of why Americans go Apple to begin with
This is such a load of BS. Who would make a phone decision based on the color of chat bubbles in one particular app?
I don’t know anyone who pays attention to such things and it seems particularly trivial. Unless you can actually identify real cases, this is just a non-issue made up and kept alive in media
It’s not literally about the color. The way iMessage works is if everyone in a group chat is using it you can send high quality video and images over it. However if you have a single non-imessage user (i.e. android user) it disabled that for everyone and defaults to MMS video/pic quality. You can see how that would obviously lead to immense peer pressure to not be the one making all of your friends experience worse, or risk just never being in those group chats.
This is such a load of BS. Who would make a phone decision based on the color of chat bubbles in one particular app?
Literal children.
Teens are using discord, snap, etc. Even in the SMS heavy US.
green messages instead of blue and has led to a rash of teen bullying.
Why is this asssertion always second hand. Is there really any such bullying?
I only know my kids:
- had to be told why there is sometimes a different color
- mainly use other chat tools like WhatsApp (yes, we’re in the US)
This really seems like a non-issue made up and kept alive in the media
I just remember being a stupid, petty teenager. It could be bullshit, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was true.
Seems like the EU is the only major entity actually making an effort these days.
Kind of a mixed bag.
Hopefully they can dodge RCS too, because it’s a poor solution. Worse, Apple’s implementation of RCS doesn’t include E2E encryption.
Edit: RCS limits attaments to 100mb! What the hell, why? I can, today, send 100mb over SMS/MMS, on Verizon, to other Verizon phones. RCS would be a step backward.
I don’t really care about iMessage, Android is my primary device, and SMS sucks, and most people use SMS because Android, and I prefer to use other apps (especially on my iOS devices).
IMessage has its own insecurities, despite what people think. There’s a recent publication about it while it uses AES to encrypt the message, the encrypted message and the AES key are packaged together with the RSA key…which never changes. So if you get someone’s RSA key, you can decrypt all their messages, old ones, new ones, ALL of them.
So if they can dodge it, this keeps the pressure toward third-party apps with proper encryption, that isn’t tied to your IMEI, Google or Apple accounts.
And this is what governments fear the most - they peoe will use apps like Signal, where not even the metadata is easily accessible or useful even if you could access it.
Here’s just one well written example of what’s wrong with RCS: https://www.reddit.com/r/UniversalProfile/comments/11b6fyd/ugh_rcs_really_does_stink/
The text of that post:
After 3 months of using RCS with Jibe, I have decided to turn RCS off due to it’s instability, unreliability, and lack of standardization. Sometimes, I’d send an RCS message and it wouldn’t go through, and sometimes someone would send me a message via RCS, and I wouldn’t get it.
In some RCS group chats, I would only see half the conversation because some people would send messages in the group chat, and I wouldn’t get them. You know what, I could list off RCS problems for 48 hours without stopping, but that would be a waist of time. The point is RCS is buggy, and doesn’t work. The Cross Carrier Messaging Initiative already failed, so there is absolutely no way RCS will ever be able to replace SMS. This, along with RCS’s bugs, is the reason why RCS will only be good enough to be a broken and unreliable iMessage for Android. Without the carriers, there is no way RCS will ever become a standard, and I don’t think Apple will ever adopt RCS because of the stupid decisions of carriers, Google, and smartphone manufacturers.
The whole reason I started using RCS was because I wanted to support it, not because I actually liked it. Now, there is no reason to support RCS because it is a broken messaging system, and will never become a standard. Android is extremely fragmented, and it will continue to be fragmented for a very, very long time
A 100MB file transfer over MMS? I’m not saying you’re lying, but recognize that is highly abnormal and most carriers aren’t going to support anything near that high. 100MB would be a huge upgrade for most people over MMS.
I have no idea what carrier this user is with and I agree that sounds absurd. Photos and videos are automatically downgraded before being delivered. The file size limit is typically below 5MB. Videos are like 480p and photos are 720p. I hate sending photos through MMS and would rather use data with a different messaging app if RCS isnt available.
He said it’s Verizon.
Ah I missed that. Thanks.
In any case, I think this user is confused. See here: https://www.verizon.com/support/knowledge-base-14641/
The maximum file size for picture/video messages depends upon the device software and device’s network capability. View the signal indicator on your phone to determine which signal is being received:
4G / 4GLTE = 1.2MB image / 3.5MB video
5G / 5G UWB = 1.2MB image / 3.5MB video
Using Verizon Messages = 100MB over Wi-Fi
I think this is where the confusion stemmed from.
Makes sense, thanks for clearing that up!
“Verizon Messages” is RCS.
That as anecdotal as me saying it works fine for me. I haven’t encountered any of the issues you quoted.
But overall I disagree that abandoning RCS to keep pushing for 3rd party apps is the correct path. How’s that been going for the last decade? SMS is the only common platform between all the people I know. If there are issues with RCS they need to fixed.
This. I’ve been using RCS for nearly 3 years, starting as soon as it was released (even going as far as to trick the messages app into letting me into the pre-release rollout), and have never had any issues with it other than when one of my friends switched over to an iPhone (and in fairness, iMessage has the same issues if you don’t deassociate your phone number)
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Perhaps the the EU should be looking at a forced divestment of Jibe?
I commented further down, but I think you are confused with this bit:
RCS limits attaments to 100mb! What the hell, why? I can, today, send 100mb over SMS/MMS, on Verizon, to other Verizon phones. RCS would be a step backward.
This is not true by any means. See here: https://www.verizon.com/support/knowledge-base-14641/
The maximum file size for picture/video messages depends upon the device software and device’s network capability. View the signal indicator on your phone to determine which signal is being received:
4G / 4GLTE = 1.2MB image / 3.5MB video
5G / 5G UWB = 1.2MB image / 3.5MB video
Using Verizon Messages = 100MB over Wi-Fi
RCS limits attaments to 100mb
Does it say so in the specification or is that the limit of a single RCS provider? How does sending files even work in RCS?
There is no such specification. It is solely up to the provider. For example, T-Mobile and ATT both state 100MB on their “Advanced Messaging” FAQ. I’m sure Verizon is the same though I couldn’t find the exact wording.
Photos and Videos through RCS use your data.
The spec does state there is an 8,000 character limit and a maximum of 100 participants in a group conversation.
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That’s a proper comment right there
Yeah, it sounds good but there’s a lot of factually incorrect statements.
“Apple RCS” is actually the GSMA RCS standard, which Apple was pretty vocal about not being encrypted, but was kind of forced to use prematurely thanks to legislation. Encryption is already being looked at being added in the next spec.
How Apple encrypts iMessages is literally detailed in their support doc. In short: The per message AES key is derived from the contacts public RSA key.
The user’s outgoing message is individually encrypted for each of the receiver’s devices. The public encryption keys and signing keys of the receiving devices are retrieved from IDS. For each receiving device, the sending device generates a random 88-bit value and uses it as an HMAC-SHA256 key to construct a 40-bit value derived from the sender and receiver public key and the plaintext. The concatenation of the 88-bit and 40-bit values makes a 128-bit key, which encrypts the message with it using AES in Counter (CTR) Mode. The 40-bit value is used by the receiver side to verify the integrity of the decrypted plaintext. This per-message AES key is encrypted using RSA-OAEP to the public key of the receiving device. The combination of the encrypted message text and the encrypted message key is then hashed with SHA-1, and the hash is signed with the Elliptic Curve Digital Signature Algorithm (ECDSA) using the sending device’s private signing key. In iOS 13 or later and iPadOS 13.1 or later, devices may use an Elliptic Curve Integrated Encryption Scheme (ECIES) encryption instead of RSA encryption.
The resulting messages, one for each receiving device, consist of the encrypted message text, the encrypted message key, and the sender’s digital signature. They are then dispatched to the APNs for delivery. Metadata, such as the timestamp and APNs routing information, isn’t encrypted. Communication with APNs is encrypted using a forward-secret TLS channel.
In short: The per message AES key is derived from the contacts public RSA key.
Erm that’s not how it actually works. Though in your defence, “in short” is pretty hard to achieve here.
The real headache though isn’t encrypting the messages. It’s making sure that only the intended recipient has the decryption key for your message. That’s where E2EE messaging gets complex and frankly Apple doesn’t do the best job.
It’s theoretically possible with iMessage, especially in a nation state level attack, for a compromised device to be one of the recipients your encrypted message is sent to. Wether “theoretically” is “actually in practice” happening is hard to judge, because nation state attacks are normally hidden by court mandated disclosure suppression orders.
The way Signal is architected, it wouldn’t be possible to comply with a court order like that. Unfortunately that means some Signal based messaging services will be forced to exit the UK since laws coming into effect next year will give them no other choice. It’ll be interesting to see if signal based services (like Google RCS) also walk or will they weaken their encryption in order to be able to comply.
The fact at least one nation state is passing laws that force “encrypted” messaging services to have the vulnerability that iMessage has is a pretty strong smoke signal that attacks like that are happening…
Erm that’s not how it actually works. Though in your defence, “in short” is pretty hard to achieve here. That’s why I attached the entire quote and linked to Apple’s support doc just below what I over-simplified.
But I will say the rest of what you wrote is a pretty decent insight. Thanks.
I haven’t heard of anyone using it so bit of a who cares situation
If EU imessage usage were as widespread as in US it would definitely be subject to regulation. Such a shame.
In the EU and most other parts of the world, the dominant messaging platform is WhatsApp, and with the Digital Market Act’s focus on business usage, not general consumers, iMessage will just squeak by.
Sounds more like this is just how the reg is written more than a “dodge”.
It’s equivalent to saying they’re dodging the spirit of the law by finagling the letter of the law.
No one uses iMessage in Europe anyway. I don’t know anyone who uses this in any significant capacity.
it isn’t popular enough because it’s not open enough… maybe apple reads between the line here :) (not that I care… nobody I know uses it.)
From the original article
EU tentatively finds it doesn’t warrant being covered by DMA
So it’s not set in stone yet.
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And why should it? It’s a proprietary system on a single platform, what right does the EU (or anyone) have to demand that it be anything more than that?
The same right the EU has to enforce standards in money, electrical plugs, data protection or food safety. Does your country not have laws on what products can and cannot be sold within its borders?
The only common messaging protocol is SMS, and iMessage supports that
If RCS becomes a generally supported standard (ie not just Google), then it would be fair to require Apple to support that, as one of many.
It really seems like the focus on Apple is just a distraction from the larger effort of trying to implement a new standard
You wanna sell in europe you obey europe’s standards and regulations
Apple doesn’t have a god-given right to sell their stuff everywhere. If you’re in [area], you abide by [area] rules. It’s that simple.
Sovereignty
