… because begging the question is a form of circular logic rather than an assertion that a contrary position would be disqualifying to one’s chances, realistically speaking?
Buddy, you’ve assumed ‘a lack of contrary views’ in your definition of ‘realistic candidate’ in the assertion ‘no other realistic candidate has a contrary view’. That is the very definition of circular.
Doesn’t matter if you think it’s a true statement regardless, it doesn’t make it any less circular.
Just gonna chime in late to say that I don’t think it’s circular. They did not define a “realistic candidate” as necessarily someone without a contrary view, just that it is a trait shared by all “realistic candidates” that are currently running. At no point did they say it was a necessary trait of all “realistic candidates.”
It’s kind of like how all squares are rectangles, but not vice versa. Just because all of the current “realistic candidates” share that one opinion, it does not logically follow that they need to share the opinion in order to be a “realistic candidate.”
Except pugjesus did describe ‘realistic candidate’ as one with no contrary views:
No realistic candidate has contrary views.
Therefore
There are no realistic candidates with contrary views.
Regardless, begging the question doesn’t necessarily need to be circular, just that the speaker assumes some premise that hasn’t been proven to be true. Namely that candidates with a different view on Israel are not “realistic”, either because of that view or because they are not the ‘presumptive’ nominee (and are therefore not realistic). In either case, the framing of the question was completely disingenuous.
Circular logic is using facts of a presumed conclusion to support the conclusion (for example “if I’m right then X is true and because of X I’m right” without actually addressing the argument for/against X).
Your ridiculous nonsense is a strawman argument where you’re pretending your opponent will use non sequiturs, instead of actually addressing their real argument, and likewise you’re assuming your opponent will be wrong before they have presented the full argument (and furthermore you have made zero attempt at proving otherwise by not presenting any other candidate with better policies)
“two things are correlated” is simply not the definition of circular.
“No other realistic candidate would handle this differently than X: because proposed Y candidate would handle this differently they are not a realistic candidate”?
Pointing out PugJesus’s ridiculous qualifier to the question is the only reasonable response, because literally any candidate proposed could be considered unrealistic on the basis of their contrary position to the question at hand. It isn’t worthy of engagement because they have already assumed the conclusion in the question as posed.
It wouldn’t even be a straw man YOU COCKEYED SALAMI, it would at most be a “fallacy fallacy”, since rather than attacking a false representation of their argument, I dismissed the conclusion on the basis of his fallacious reasoning.
But even then, YOU IRRIDESCENT PORCUPINE, I haven’t argued on behalf of the realism of Cornell West’s candidacy, I’ve only pointed out that PugJesus’s qualification of “realistic” is intentionally open-ended and clearly in bad faith. There are many potential candidates that have said they would handle this issue differently, but presumably none would be “realistic” because PugJesus considers Bidens response the only reasonable one.
Go self-flagellate yourself with a dictionary, you pompous leprechaun
But that’s a strawman because that’s your argument and not theirs. As much as you think you attacked their real argument you simply did not.
Since you specifically chose to only attack the choice of words but not actually address the argument by not trying to present another “realistic option” or alternatively ask what they mean by it, you have no grounds for claiming that your attack is valid.
you specifically chose to only attack the choice of words
you think you attacked their real argument you simply did not
Lol, lmao even. In your own words, “go take a logics[sic] class you irate troll”.
Silly me for addressing the argument as they presented it and not as they were thinking it. But just to humor you:
1 - pugjesus (PJ): ‘these dumbasses aren’t interested in a realistic examination of Biden’s policies. They’re just salivating at the thought of another Trump presidency’ -> implying criticisms of his handling of Israel aren’t ‘realistic’, presumably because we need to support his decisions since he is the incumbent running against a fascist
2 - me: ‘you will have biden and you will like it’ -> obvious facetious joke about PJ dismissing critique of Biden as pointless because we must vote for him or else, ignoring all other reasons it would be beneficial to be critical of Biden’s policies despite him being the presumptive nominee
3 - PJ: “Would any other US presidential candidate react substantially differently to this crisis? No.” -> A second attempt to reduce policy debate to electoral calculus, in addition to defending Biden from criticism by implying his response to the conflict is the only reasonable one since there are (allegedly) no challengers who would respond differently. (here is where PJ’s argument starts taking on fallacious reasoning. They are arguing from Ignorance: since an alternative response hasn’t been taken by a challenger candidate, then it must not be ‘reasonable’. He isn’t defending the policy directly, but rather defending it on the basis that an alternative hasn’t been provided that meets some abstract criteria of ‘reasonable’)
4 - commie: ‘cornel west has been outspoken about having a different political stance on this.’ -> a valid response to PJ’s assertion that ‘there are no other candidates that would react differently’, since West is a presidential candidate that has said they would act differently from Biden.
5 - PJ: “Would any other realistic US presidential candidate react substantially differently to this crisis?” -> adding the undefined and abstract qualifier ‘realistic’ to the challenge and assuming the conclusion from the third argument (no alternatives have been proven, therefore Biden’s response must be the only reasonable one). He is assuming the conclusion ‘Biden’s is the only reasonable approach’, so someone (like West) who has a different one would not be reasonable (that is not me miss-interpreting their argument, they say exactly as much in their next comment “a contrary position would be disqualifying to one’s chances, realistically speaking”
The underlying thrust of PJ’s argument is that Biden must be defended, because criticizing him publicly hurts his chances against Trump. I don’t think I need argue the case for targeted critique, even self-critique from within progressive political groups. People like PugJesus (and yourself, I assume) who insist on unity at the expense of targeted critique of policy are the reason we continue to support US imperialistic activities despite a growing progressive base, and the reason why fascist movements have been given room to flourish because we’re incapable of enacting progressive policies that improve the material conditions of the working class because we drop them at the slightest threat of loosing moderate ‘support’. We cry about how the two-party system acts to serve capital, but then suppress critical discussion when it inevitably produces another false-choice as if that’s not exactly how two-party systems function.
If you’d like to argue the case on pugjesus’s behalf, be my guest, but don’t accuse me of strawmaning their position when they are incapable of articulating it without fallacious reasoning themselves.
Tell me how this isn’t begging the question.
… because begging the question is a form of circular logic rather than an assertion that a contrary position would be disqualifying to one’s chances, realistically speaking?
… do you know what begging the question is?
“No other realistic candidate has a contrary view on this issue” -> “Their contrary views disqualify them as a realistic candidate”
Seems pretty circular to me.
Strawman, and that is in fact not what circular logic is.
That’s not circular logic, and thinking it is reflects a serious lack of understanding of what circular logic is supposed to describe and criticize.
Buddy, you’ve assumed ‘a lack of contrary views’ in your definition of ‘realistic candidate’ in the assertion ‘no other realistic candidate has a contrary view’. That is the very definition of circular.
Doesn’t matter if you think it’s a true statement regardless, it doesn’t make it any less circular.
Just gonna chime in late to say that I don’t think it’s circular. They did not define a “realistic candidate” as necessarily someone without a contrary view, just that it is a trait shared by all “realistic candidates” that are currently running. At no point did they say it was a necessary trait of all “realistic candidates.”
It’s kind of like how all squares are rectangles, but not vice versa. Just because all of the current “realistic candidates” share that one opinion, it does not logically follow that they need to share the opinion in order to be a “realistic candidate.”
Except pugjesus did describe ‘realistic candidate’ as one with no contrary views:
Regardless, begging the question doesn’t necessarily need to be circular, just that the speaker assumes some premise that hasn’t been proven to be true. Namely that candidates with a different view on Israel are not “realistic”, either because of that view or because they are not the ‘presumptive’ nominee (and are therefore not realistic). In either case, the framing of the question was completely disingenuous.
Go take a logics class you irate troll.
Circular logic is using facts of a presumed conclusion to support the conclusion (for example “if I’m right then X is true and because of X I’m right” without actually addressing the argument for/against X).
Your ridiculous nonsense is a strawman argument where you’re pretending your opponent will use non sequiturs, instead of actually addressing their real argument, and likewise you’re assuming your opponent will be wrong before they have presented the full argument (and furthermore you have made zero attempt at proving otherwise by not presenting any other candidate with better policies)
“two things are correlated” is simply not the definition of circular.
You mean like,
“No other realistic candidate would handle this differently than X: because proposed Y candidate would handle this differently they are not a realistic candidate”?
Pointing out PugJesus’s ridiculous qualifier to the question is the only reasonable response, because literally any candidate proposed could be considered unrealistic on the basis of their contrary position to the question at hand. It isn’t worthy of engagement because they have already assumed the conclusion in the question as posed.
It wouldn’t even be a straw man YOU COCKEYED SALAMI, it would at most be a “fallacy fallacy”, since rather than attacking a false representation of their argument, I dismissed the conclusion on the basis of his fallacious reasoning.
But even then, YOU IRRIDESCENT PORCUPINE, I haven’t argued on behalf of the realism of Cornell West’s candidacy, I’ve only pointed out that PugJesus’s qualification of “realistic” is intentionally open-ended and clearly in bad faith. There are many potential candidates that have said they would handle this issue differently, but presumably none would be “realistic” because PugJesus considers Bidens response the only reasonable one.
Go self-flagellate yourself with a dictionary, you pompous leprechaun
But that’s a strawman because that’s your argument and not theirs. As much as you think you attacked their real argument you simply did not.
Since you specifically chose to only attack the choice of words but not actually address the argument by not trying to present another “realistic option” or alternatively ask what they mean by it, you have no grounds for claiming that your attack is valid.
deleted
Lol, lmao even. In your own words, “go take a logics[sic] class you irate troll”.
Silly me for addressing the argument as they presented it and not as they were thinking it. But just to humor you:
1 - pugjesus (PJ): ‘these dumbasses aren’t interested in a realistic examination of Biden’s policies. They’re just salivating at the thought of another Trump presidency’ -> implying criticisms of his handling of Israel aren’t ‘realistic’, presumably because we need to support his decisions since he is the incumbent running against a fascist
2 - me: ‘you will have biden and you will like it’ -> obvious facetious joke about PJ dismissing critique of Biden as pointless because we must vote for him or else, ignoring all other reasons it would be beneficial to be critical of Biden’s policies despite him being the presumptive nominee
3 - PJ: “Would any other US presidential candidate react substantially differently to this crisis? No.” -> A second attempt to reduce policy debate to electoral calculus, in addition to defending Biden from criticism by implying his response to the conflict is the only reasonable one since there are (allegedly) no challengers who would respond differently. (here is where PJ’s argument starts taking on fallacious reasoning. They are arguing from Ignorance: since an alternative response hasn’t been taken by a challenger candidate, then it must not be ‘reasonable’. He isn’t defending the policy directly, but rather defending it on the basis that an alternative hasn’t been provided that meets some abstract criteria of ‘reasonable’)
4 - commie: ‘cornel west has been outspoken about having a different political stance on this.’ -> a valid response to PJ’s assertion that ‘there are no other candidates that would react differently’, since West is a presidential candidate that has said they would act differently from Biden.
5 - PJ: “Would any other realistic US presidential candidate react substantially differently to this crisis?” -> adding the undefined and abstract qualifier ‘realistic’ to the challenge and assuming the conclusion from the third argument (no alternatives have been proven, therefore Biden’s response must be the only reasonable one). He is assuming the conclusion ‘Biden’s is the only reasonable approach’, so someone (like West) who has a different one would not be reasonable (that is not me miss-interpreting their argument, they say exactly as much in their next comment “a contrary position would be disqualifying to one’s chances, realistically speaking”
The underlying thrust of PJ’s argument is that Biden must be defended, because criticizing him publicly hurts his chances against Trump. I don’t think I need argue the case for targeted critique, even self-critique from within progressive political groups. People like PugJesus (and yourself, I assume) who insist on unity at the expense of targeted critique of policy are the reason we continue to support US imperialistic activities despite a growing progressive base, and the reason why fascist movements have been given room to flourish because we’re incapable of enacting progressive policies that improve the material conditions of the working class because we drop them at the slightest threat of loosing moderate ‘support’. We cry about how the two-party system acts to serve capital, but then suppress critical discussion when it inevitably produces another false-choice as if that’s not exactly how two-party systems function.
If you’d like to argue the case on pugjesus’s behalf, be my guest, but don’t accuse me of strawmaning their position when they are incapable of articulating it without fallacious reasoning themselves.
No realistic candidate has contrary views.
Therefore
There are no realistic candidates with contrary views.
Is that really too complex for you to understand? Jesus Christ.
LMFAO