Googling around, I’ve seen a lot of users and journos claiming they are a jewish stereotype. I struggled to even compare them to what HP did. And as a partially jew, I’m really jealous of qualities these bigots paint and the thinking process Quark put to work. He’s probably my favorite character of the whole franchise.
The HP goblins are so unabashedly antisemitic. It really takes an English writer to pump the xenophobia up to eleven.
The funny thing is - Rowling could avoid it, not mention t at all, but she’s gone out of her way to print it.
You could basically remove money from HP and not make a difference. The hate between the Malfoys and Harry/the Weasleys is mostly based on world view anyway. The fact that they are rich and powerful would just as well serve as them just being influential.
There was was really no reason to bring the goblins in, or at least not as she did
Meanwhile, over on Reddit, you’re the racist if you call the Goblins anti-semitic because you’re assuming that they look Jewish. My brother in Christ, I didn’t write the books or direct the movies.
It’s not like JK is some paragon of moral character either. She’s already a prolific transphobic bigot, are people really shocked that she is also racist and an anti-semite?
I get it. If someone else doesn’t think they look Jewish and hasn’t even though about it then someone else saying these fucked up looking goblins look Jewish does sound a bit jeez dude.
I can imagine someone going
“Well it’s obvious just look at their noses”
“…”
“What, it can’t be a coincidence that they’re also greedy bankers!”
“👀”
They don’t look Jewish. They look EXACTLY like the horrible racist cartoons mocking Jews from WW2 and before. So anyone who really doesn’t get the connection clearly is just ignorant of historical racism.
Are goblins themselves historically a racist caricature? Because I can think of other instances of goblins depicted with big noses and being greedy money-misers as if they were Jewish stereotypes. World of Warcraft for one. Most fantasy games, really.
None of those also put them in a bank that had a huge star of David on the floor, tho.
Goblins don’t always look like that: https://www.britannica.com/art/goblin
But the art varies depending on the artist, and sometimes they are used like that. Just like tolkien apparently modeled his dwarves after Jews. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarves_in_Middle-earth#:~:text=Tolkien elaborated on Jewish influence,Tolkien said "The dwarves of
Here’s a racist cartoon from the 1940s to see how specifically HP lines up. https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn544586
Maybe they are. Recently it was found that the Japanese Tengu may have its origin in an encounter with Jewish travelers back in olden times.
And the bank having a Jewish symbol can be attributed to the movie director allowing it unchanged. Or that it went forgotten and undetected. Or that it was a magical symbol that the goblins used for their security. Can’t Jewish imagery have a place in a magical society? The goblins had curse breakers slumming it in the pyramids. They went around and took what was useful to them.
But none of that. It’s racism because tweet, tweet little Birdy.
Hello.
Am a Jew. Am well read on history. I never saw the connection. For me the hp goblins have always been just what a goblin would physically look like.
That they are bankers and deal with money it never occured to me that they would be a Jewish stereotype.
I’ve had this discussion before so I’m very likely to just stop responding after this message but I wanted to show even us affected people aren’t always seeing the same thing you are. Have a good one
Am a Jew. Am well read on history.
That they are bankers and deal with money it never occured to me that they would be a Jewish stereotype.
As a black man…
Are you suggesting a Jew would not have a relevant perspective about alledged antisemitism?
I’m suggesting that you cannot be well versed in the history of racism against Jewish people and unaware of what I posted. So the remaining options are they they’re not Jewish, and are trolling, or do not actually know history, and are confident in their ignorance.
Either way, their post becomes irrelevant.
Yeah the key phrase here is “stereotypically Jewish.” In reality, people look like all kinds, but our stereotypes are very specific. And fucked up, just to be clear
The antisemitism of HP books is a dumbass take on the whole thing.
If the HP goblins are Jews, then they are a defeated people living in a backwards, isolated society, fearful of change.
The wizards are openly mocked in the story. Do none of you really see that? They are a caricature of the British system of lords and commoners.
Pure blood, mudblood. Ring a bell?The goblins as bankers in the story can be compared to Jews in medieval Europe who were forced to become merchants because they were not allowed to hold a title.
That’s not antisemitism, it’s history.During the war, goblin and mixed families are shown as victims same as the Jewish and gypsy purge.
Antisemitism? No. History.The epilogue shows that the wizard society remains mostly unchanged, still backwards, still isolated with only the new generation taking a step forward towards equality.
Antisemitism? No. History.The only antisemitism found is the portrayal of Jews as goblins, in a fantasy series about dumb human wizards being dumb and most magical creatures being awesome.
It’s a very tryhard theory that only holds water after Rowling said some hot take in her old age.
And only considers people as static blocks of stone unable to start young and change as they grow older, for better or worse.It’s a sucky POV and completely wrong.
If we’re going on the HP route, then it has to be mentioned that by promoting the Ferengi, you are also supporting the objectification of women.
It’s not a secret that one of the main producers in charge was anti-women. This idea of having women paraded around naked and servile is a gross violation of women’s rights everywhere.
Yet it’s ok when the Ferengi are doing it because it’s an “alien” culture that someone invented out of thin air. Nevermind that the women acting those roles were being actively humiliated.But I guess it might not be the same in some people’s eyes. After all, it’s one thing to portray a race or a culture in a stereotypically racist way, and it’s quite another to maltreat every representative of a biological sex. Completely different, I’m sure.
I always lumped that in with the rest of Ferengi culture. The capitalism and sexism were exaggerated versions of our own problems
DS9 saw a feminist Ferengi revolution that largely happened off-screen but the women (sorry, feeemales) started off as objectified and servile and enslaved, and ended able to go about without men, make their own profit, and wear whatever they want! If anything, their insanely advanced timeline was something I found enviable.
So the problem is that the HP goblins didn’t accept a major shift in their culture to more easily integrate and develop with the rest of the magical world?
Wizards aren’t the United Federation of Planets. They’re conservative and isolationists. Why would the goblins want to integrate with them and their values?There’s no reasonable explanation for such a major shift in culture over night, for any of the magical races.
I can’t actually talk about Harry Potter. I only addressed the thing I know about (the DS9 Ferengi feminist revolution). I’m not supporting or refuting a hypothesis, just adding information to the part of the conversation I’m qualified to comment on (big fan of DS9).
Lol, yes.
The inclusion of the particular details of goblins serves no purpose, it tells no part of the story other than to suggest the way in which rowling views Jewish people. Subjugated and marginalized, but also subject to harmful stereotypes.
Note that I am treating the HP goblins and jews as different entities. I never saw them as synonymous. The goblins’ culture in the story was theirs and theirs alone and you won’t get me to see otherwise because that’s what it is to me, a story.
That being said, if we attribute goblins as representative to Jewish people, then we should do the same over the entire series. Which culture do the wizards represent? The giants? The werewolves? The mer people? Pure bloods? Mudbloods?
Every other representative is ignored. The portrayal of society is ignored. The goblins are pulled out of that story and their role within, put under a spotlight and given a sign saying “pity us”.
Because the Jewish were marginalized? They were. Many times, in many countries. Across many centuries.
This isn’t antisemitism, it’s fact of history. Don’t like history? Too bad, it still happened.Have you actually seen the movies or read the books? Rowling ridicules wizard society. Who does that society represent I wonder? And in what context?
Extract the Jewish from the goblins, then extract the society that treats them poorly. Is it still antisemitism or is it a reflection of reality at one point?
The thing is - they grow out of sexism in recent series. I’ve heard Quark’s own mom became a business-woman. Isn’t that sweet?
And the goblins in HP start out as something to frighten an 11-old and grow to become their own people, with a culture and a way of life.
Some people might not like the exposure, but it’s still growth.
You talk like they were constantly parading naked Ferengi women around on the show, but I struggle to recall even a single instance of one being on screen without clothing. If there was one it has completely faded from my mind.
I can say a similar thing about the goblins.
That the problematic aspect being called out was never directly shown? Pretty sure you can’t.
Pretty sure I can. Quark’s mother and Troi’s mother.
“If there was one it has completely faded from my mind.”
Yeah, about that. Not once did I or anyone I know took note of that star of David in the bank in any of the films until it became a trend years after the fact to be upset by it.
You don’t remember one thing, I don’t remember another. Why is the thing I don’t remember more important than yours?
It’s interesting that while the situations are similar, we can make excuses for the one we’re biased towards. On one side there’s an amazing space culture that degrades women, lies, cheats and steals, but it’s ok because the presented characters are likeable and the society reluctantly grows out of it later. On the other side, there’s an evil magical culture that makes use of a historical stereotype steeped in folklore and which also lies, cheats and steals in an lore ok kind of way, but it’s not ok because they don’t have likeable characters and don’t grow out of it as much as some people would have liked.
Now you might say it’s not the same. That would be correct. They’re only similar because while the details surrounding them are different, they both revolve around topics that should be equally disapproved, yet are not. For reasons.
…is there some reason you didn’t point out that I forgot the episode rather than leading on by saying similar arguments could be made about the goblins? Or was the “similar thing” you were talking about the fact that anyone can just say “I don’t remember”?
So yes, in one episode Ishka appears naked, appropriately covered for broadcast TV of course. And the entire point of that episode was that Ferengi traditions surrounding women were discriminatory, old fashioned, and should not be accepted.
Also, Lwaxana isn’t Ferengi, so I’m not sure how she’s relevant here.
Yet it’s ok when the Ferengi are doing it because it’s an “alien” culture that someone invented out of thin air.
It wasn’t okay. That was literally the point.
The point we’re dancing around is whether to boycott a work of fiction due to its use of uncomfortable topics and under which circumstances.
The comparison between Harry Potter and Star Trek is that both had persons in charge that are considered to have or have had extreme views in regards to those topics.The views on Ferengi traditions were within the lore of its fictional universe. The practices outside of it were very much not in line with those same beliefs at the time.
And we’re remembering different things. The practice was not outdated, but very much in use within the Ferengi core space. Even at the end it became a tradition that could be practiced freely, not eliminated completely. And not because of morals, but because of profit.
I’ll concede on Troi’s mother because I’m vague on the details of her circumstances.
The core idea remains. Women treated poorly on one side, Jewish people treated poorly on the other. One side praised, the other shunned. Both in the same place.
The point we’re dancing around is whether to boycott a work of fiction due to its use of uncomfortable topics and under which circumstances.
The core idea remains. Women treated poorly on one side, Jewish people treated poorly on the other. One side praised, the other shunned. Both in the same place.
Star Trek brought up uncomfortable topics quite regularly specifically to address them. In the context of the episode in which Ishka disrobes, the Ferengi practice of naked and subservient women is literally the central driving contention of the plot, with the protagonists clearly on the side of “women shouldn’t have to be naked, and they should be able to do things on their own without men.”
Harry Potter goblins are there because… look at the funny little greedy men with big noses, aren’t they annoying and mean, haha?
Equating those as being “in the same place” is asinine.
Sure, Star Trek had its own list assholes in charge of production and scummy behaviour, and calling that out for what it is is fine, but the way that Ferengi were portrayed and developed was definitely not an example of that.
