https://archive.is/j7NqS if you don’t want to be assaulted by cookie notices and paywalls and more.
Edit to add:
I find it absurd how this logic is used so often:
He insisted that Russia was justified in starting the war because Ukraine was run by “Nazis”, even though its president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is Jewish.
It’s logical nonsense to think the two are mutually exclusive. Moreover, it ignores the very real issue of Nazis in Ukraine. We even see this “don’t believe your eyes” nonsense, trying to convince people open and proud Nazis aren’t in fact Nazis.
Nobody honestly believes Putin started the war to fight Nazis, he just used it as an excuse because he thought the West would stay out of his way for this flimsy lie. Instead he was quickly called out for using resources such as his own Wagner Group in the war which directly recruit modern Nazis, and thus lost all credibility.
On reddit I typically ignore them as nearly all are either bots, paid propagandists, or Nazis themselves who are stupid enough to think they’re going to change someone’s mind. But Lemmy is a whole new ballgame, and if the poster IS one of the above trying to be sneaky about sowing doubt, I didn’t want to leave the comment unchallenged for others to get the wrong idea. I mean this whole post could have just been left at “Putin said…” and most of us just have a good laugh and move on. :-)
It’s wild to me that you genuinely think everyone who disagrees with you is either a “bot, paid propagandist, or Nazi”. Are there some of those amongst people who disagree with you? Probably. But to think it’s “nearly all” means you are oblivious. The spectrum of human belief is wide, and people on the opposite side of the spectrum are still people. To call them a bot or paid propagandist is dehumanizing (“no real human could hold such an opinion”). To call them a Nazi is (unless you can show that they likely are) just an attempt to shut the conversation down as well. You act like you’re trying to help foster good conversation, that you’re here to help correct misinformation or the like; but the fact that your first instinct is to just dismiss the humanity of someone who disagrees with you, and shut down the conversation by any means rather than actually having a discussion, contradicts your stated intent.
Hold a conversation, which is a back-and-forth, where neither person should assume bad of the other person; you should both assume you are there to participate in good faith until you have reason to believe otherwise. This assumption of bad-faith helps no-one, especially not the people you think you’re helping; they see someone getting “shut-down”, not “disproven”.
“Zelenskyy is Jewish therefore there is no Nazi problem is Ukraine” is logical nonsense. It’s a quick quip but it doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny whatsoever.
It’s also not of any value to anyone to assert that people arguing against you must be arguing in bad faith, or are themselves fascists. If something specific can be pointed to that makes either of those seem likely, call that out. Otherwise you’re trying to shut down the conversation, not have real discussion.
I’m not sure if you wilfully missed the point of my comment or if I wasn’t explicit enough. I wasn’t commenting on whether or not that was Putin’s motivation. My complaint was with the logic: “there can’t be a Nazi problem in Ukraine, because Zelenskyy is Jewish”. That’s it. That logic is faulty and disingenuous, because that implies there is not a nazi problem in Ukraine, when there absolutely is.
Not sure why your reply didn’t show up in my mailbox but I happened to spot it when scrolling through the thread again… So to answer your question, no it wasn’t about willfully missing your point, but rather that I wasn’t certain exactly where your argument was leading. I did catch the drift of the idea that both arguments could be true, I’ve just been jaded by reading enough shills on reddit who came back with “Putin wuz justified!” shit that I didn’t want to leave it to chance.
https://archive.is/j7NqS if you don’t want to be assaulted by cookie notices and paywalls and more.
Edit to add: I find it absurd how this logic is used so often:
It’s logical nonsense to think the two are mutually exclusive. Moreover, it ignores the very real issue of Nazis in Ukraine. We even see this “don’t believe your eyes” nonsense, trying to convince people open and proud Nazis aren’t in fact Nazis.
Nobody honestly believes Putin started the war to fight Nazis, he just used it as an excuse because he thought the West would stay out of his way for this flimsy lie. Instead he was quickly called out for using resources such as his own Wagner Group in the war which directly recruit modern Nazis, and thus lost all credibility.
deleted by creator
On reddit I typically ignore them as nearly all are either bots, paid propagandists, or Nazis themselves who are stupid enough to think they’re going to change someone’s mind. But Lemmy is a whole new ballgame, and if the poster IS one of the above trying to be sneaky about sowing doubt, I didn’t want to leave the comment unchallenged for others to get the wrong idea. I mean this whole post could have just been left at “Putin said…” and most of us just have a good laugh and move on. :-)
It’s wild to me that you genuinely think everyone who disagrees with you is either a “bot, paid propagandist, or Nazi”. Are there some of those amongst people who disagree with you? Probably. But to think it’s “nearly all” means you are oblivious. The spectrum of human belief is wide, and people on the opposite side of the spectrum are still people. To call them a bot or paid propagandist is dehumanizing (“no real human could hold such an opinion”). To call them a Nazi is (unless you can show that they likely are) just an attempt to shut the conversation down as well. You act like you’re trying to help foster good conversation, that you’re here to help correct misinformation or the like; but the fact that your first instinct is to just dismiss the humanity of someone who disagrees with you, and shut down the conversation by any means rather than actually having a discussion, contradicts your stated intent.
Hold a conversation, which is a back-and-forth, where neither person should assume bad of the other person; you should both assume you are there to participate in good faith until you have reason to believe otherwise. This assumption of bad-faith helps no-one, especially not the people you think you’re helping; they see someone getting “shut-down”, not “disproven”.
“Zelenskyy is Jewish therefore there is no Nazi problem is Ukraine” is logical nonsense. It’s a quick quip but it doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny whatsoever.
It’s also not of any value to anyone to assert that people arguing against you must be arguing in bad faith, or are themselves fascists. If something specific can be pointed to that makes either of those seem likely, call that out. Otherwise you’re trying to shut down the conversation, not have real discussion.
I’m not sure if you wilfully missed the point of my comment or if I wasn’t explicit enough. I wasn’t commenting on whether or not that was Putin’s motivation. My complaint was with the logic: “there can’t be a Nazi problem in Ukraine, because Zelenskyy is Jewish”. That’s it. That logic is faulty and disingenuous, because that implies there is not a nazi problem in Ukraine, when there absolutely is.
There is a nazi problem in pretty much every country, it may just have a different label. This does not justify declaring war.
I’ll just quote myself though honestly I shouldn’t respond:
Note also that did I did not comment on the justness of declaring war.
Not sure why your reply didn’t show up in my mailbox but I happened to spot it when scrolling through the thread again… So to answer your question, no it wasn’t about willfully missing your point, but rather that I wasn’t certain exactly where your argument was leading. I did catch the drift of the idea that both arguments could be true, I’ve just been jaded by reading enough shills on reddit who came back with “Putin wuz justified!” shit that I didn’t want to leave it to chance.