Archived copies of the article: ghostarchive.org archive.today web.archive.org
About the only way we’re going to actually have a democracy is if they consistently lose elections. That’s going to mean volunteering, donating, and actually turning out to vote
Ok he did say it verbatim but it sounds like he’s being sarcastic.
Edit: y’all I never said that this was a responsible example of a politician communicating with the public.
He’s not being sarcastic. He’s artificially injecting sarcasm into his voice so he can say what he really believes. He wants to jail Democrats and pardon the insurrectionists. He defines everything that is beneficial about our society as evil. He’s talks like he lives in alternate reality. He wants to tear down our liberal democracy and replace it with a christofascist dictatorship. It’s not a joke.
It’s time to stop giving these guys a free pass when they say they’re just joking or speak in a sarcastic way. These people are unironically telling you what they want to do. Believe them when they say they want to destroy our democracy.
Say what? Did you watch your own video? Because I followed your link, watched it for ~3min, and he is clearly 100% being sarcastic. Not just in tone of voice, it’s clear from the content. No doubt about it. When laying out his “plan to destroy democracy” it’s a laundry list of points from the stop-the-steal bullshit. Among that:
All things the Republicans accused the Democrats of doing during the 2020 election. Then he ends with saying:
I mean the guy went off the deep end and is obviously insane, but there is simply no doubt that he was being sarcastic here and that the measures he cites are not his actual plan. A Republican letting millions of people into the country voluntarily should have given it away to even the densest of viewers.
Sorry, I should have been more explicit. My bad. All the things he lists are the alternate reality he lives in. He really believes the Democrats have done those things and thinks the beneficial things the Democrats have done are evil. Like he thinks Democrats have poisoned the blood of our country by letting in immigrants, even though we’re a nation of immigrants, and even though Republicans killed the border bill. He thinks mail in voting is bad, because he wants to suppress voter turn out. That list was him thinking he’s being clever, to paraphrase, “The Democrats have already destroyed our democracy.” He even accuses the Democratic party of being an authoritarian regime, when we know that is what Republicans want on day 1.
When he says he wants to restore our constitutional republic he means he wants to destroy our democracy. Constitutional republic is conservatives code for “we are not a democracy, we have minority rule”. He then accuses us, anyone left of him, all of hating white, straight, “successful people”, when it’s the same group of white straight screw ups that hate all of us. He says we hate our founders, our history, and self made people when, all conservatives do is lie about the founders and history. Most of the founders were Deists, but conservatives insist we are a christian nation. Conservatives say they don’t want activist judges, but then use British law in their opinions to overturn Roe v Wade. The say billionaires are self made success stories, but Elon Musk and billionaires they hate like Bill Gates just inherited a bunch of money.
Do I need to do a full translation of his speech or have I a clarified enough? He wants to destroy democracy. I thought his “joke” was self explanatory too. The commenter I was replying to seem to suggest Republicans don’t want to form a christofascist dictatorship because they’re saying it with a sarcastic tone of voice. Which is nonsense and so 2016, “He’s just trolling”. Does anyone else remember that? Self proclaimed internet trolls got interviewed and proudly explained how they had got Trump elected and were in on the joke. I’m never going to let that kind of rhetoric slide again. edit: typo
Fair enough, but none of that means he wasn’t being sarcastic. Merriam-Webster defines that as “a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain”, which this clearly was. That is of course not a get-out-of-jail-card for being a dumbass, but he doesn’t intend to abolish (his twisted idea of) democracy.
I mean suppose for a second, just for arguments sake, that the Democratic party did indeed steal the 2020 election and you would have to re-evaluate things like January 6th being an insurrection, because violent resistance against somebody undermining a country’s constitution is legitimate. Which is a stance you might have to take yourself sooner rather than later, especially if Trump wins again.
On a side-note, as a German growing up on copious amounts of Nazi history in school and some TV channels running 24/7 documentaries about them it seems rather clear to me where these MAGA people are headed. Already was in 2016. It’s fascism. But it is important to remember that such movements aren’t as monolithic as they might seem from the outside. There are many people in them who are just high on their own supply of bullshit, and you don’t do yourself any favours by misinterpreting them and fielding arguments which are then easily refuted, doubly so if you are fighting against their confirmation bias.
To be fair though, the article in the OP seems to make that very same mistake.
The comment I replied to was:
What this implies is, because the speaker said it a certain way, he doesn’t really mean he wants to destroy democracy. I’m saying, no, he clearly does, in the second half of his CPAC speech he describes destroying democracy.
His joke in the first half of the CPAC speech was he said “this is my plan”, listed stuff the Democrats have done, and then the punchline was Democrats have already destroyed democracy. It doesn’t matter how he said it. Many MAGA support believe the Democrats have done those things or that the beneficial things the Democrats have done are evil. He does intended to abolish Democracy as do many MAGA supporters.
If you have an argument that can refute this and demonstrate that the fascists in the Republican party are not trying to build a christofascist dictatorship please share it.
See my reply to you up-thread.
It is absolutey insane how hard it is to find one reasonable comment on Lemmy these days. ‘Naturally gifted’ density or willful ignorance, either way, there’s an impressive amount of people that believe he was speaking from the heart because it confirms their own beliefs.
I understand the start of his speech where he says “this is my plan” is his idea of a joke. He’s not saying he’s going to do those things, he’s saying the Democrats have already done those things. But he really believes that the Democrats have done those things or that the beneficial things the Democrats have done are evil. Sorry I didn’t think I needed to be this explicit.
He does want to destroy our democracy though. He wants a christofascist dictatorship. He talks about making a “new American Republic” out of the ashes and retribution. He wants to pardon the Jan 6 rioters. He wants to lock up political opponents in the Democratic Party. They want to replace everyone in the white house with partisan yes men, a plan called Project 2025.
Sorry, I didn’t do a good job explaining this the first time around.
And I understand that you understand the joke. I understand that Posobiec and the far right are nuts and believe the Democrats have already done what he’s joking about. You didn’t need to be that explicit, and you don’t have to type “Sorry, I didn’t think I needed to be that explicit” in every reply to make yourself feel superior either. You’re not apologizing, you’re still on a high horse. I don’t even necessarily disagree with you but I took issue with your responses.
I made a mistake. I wasn’t clear or explicit enough and a bunch of people misunderstood because of it. If you don’t believe my apology is sincere, I don’t care. But I’m not going to let you or anyone mischaracterize what I say without a response.
edit: Ok, I might care a little if you don’t accept my apology. But as far as I’m concerned you have the right to reject my apology and say it is insincere. For some reason I don’t really understand, I really care if other people in general think less of me.
I thinkI have an ego problem.it’s a big part of why bottomfeeder conservatives don’t pick up on sarcasm or any form of linguistic subtlety - they have their own stories they tell themselves about what Don Jesus said after the fact, and don’t need to worry about whether he was being sarcastic to own the libs. The angels don’t use sarcasm, so neither do they, and they certainly don’t expect it from a cheesy poof.
Republicans already tried to end democracy when they tried to stop the transfer of power through violence in the last election.
Now they’re just coming out and saying it “we’re terrorists” and “we’ll end democracy”
This guy: “they’re being sarcastic”.
Bush V. Gore
Poll taxes.
Well he clearly is being sarcastic though. Frankly this whole thread is an affront towards the concept of language comprehension.
The facts don’t matter, only the narrative.
Every accusation is a confession.
I see, so the other day when you were accusing me of being disingenuous and splitting hairs, you were confessing that you are disingenuous and split hairs.
While it was obvious, I have to say I’m surprised to hear you admit it.
Oh wow. So you’re going to keep trolling me huh. Wow, big surprise. Don’t let me stop you.
Trolling you? You responded to me not the other way around. Lol
I guess this is another one of those “every accusation is a confession” things.
It’s the standard playing ignorant routine. Does it get old?
“Don the Magic Cloak of Plausible Deniability and come with us!”
Pretending it’s a joke is literally their tactic.
Read the wider context.
They need to dress what they’re very serious about as sarcasm because saying it seriously is a crime.
Delivering something in a sarcastic affect doesn’t necessarily make it a joke if the context doesn’t support it.
There’s nothing funny about calling insurrectionists “martyrs”, having a written plan about how they’ll gut the government, seeing how they behave in states where they have complete control where they have actually gutted the possibility of anyone else coming to power.
None of that supports this as a joke.
GP didn’t say these people or this speaker aren’t trying to destroy democracy. GP said they were being sarcastic in this specific video timestamp with the “ending democracy” quote and the context around it.
But nobody in this thread has doubted that the Republicans are anti-democratic in general.
Well did you actually look at the context in the video? Because if you don’t see that he is being sarcastic there then, no offence, you have no idea what sarcasm is. Or you are hugging your confirmation bias like your life depends on it, which to be fair it actually might. The speech in its entirety is clearly a fascist screed, but that doesn’t mean the beginning of it isn’t sarcastic. And obviously so at that.
Yes, context matters. On that we agree. And unless you think he is actually proposing to “flood the nation with millions of invaders [sic] who vote the way we want” then he was being fucking sarcastic there.
That is not what I mean when I say he wasn’t being sarcastic. I understand that the joke is he said “this is my plan”, then listed a bunch of things the Democrats did, including when he listed immigration, and then the punchline is the Democrats did those things and have already destroyed democracy. What I mean is that he and MAGA supporters really believe that immigration is the Democrats fault. And that he thinks immigration poisons the blood of our country even though the US is a nation of immigrants and in fact immigration is a net benefit.
When he says, to paraphrase, “I want to destroy democracy” but says it in a sarcastic way, I mean he’s not being sarcastic. He really wants to destroy democracy. He describes destroying democracy in the second part of his CPAC speech.
That is irrelevant.
Also irrelevant.
There are, by definition, two conditions to be met for his statement to be sarcastic.
ironicsatirical? Yes he does, he is throwing a statement made about him back at the Democrats.It is entirely possible for him to want to destroy democracy and still say it in a sarcastic way at the same time. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
Plus, as we have established down-thread, you seem to agree that he doesn’t believe he wants to destroy democracy, because he has a twisted notion of what democracy means.
I don’t understand why that is so hard to grasp for people in this thread.
Edit: a word.
I recommend a descriptive approach for definitions rather than a prescriptive approach. Rather than using the dictionary as a kind of set of physical laws for what words mean, prescriptive, it’s relevant to consider how people use words, descriptive. I agree his definition of democracy is twisted. But when he gives that definition for the word democracy, he means democracy and more specifically US democracy.
I think your argument is missing the forest for the trees here, because your argument’s logic seems to be he isn’t using the definition of the word properly therefore it isn’t possible for him to mean that he wants to destroy that thing. As long as the definition of a word is understood by other people, then a speaker can assign a word whatever definition they want.
When people say he’s just being sarcastic, they mean he doesn’t really mean what he says. He really wants to destroy democracy. So by that definition of sarcastic, the one people are using, he is not being sarcastic. edit: typos
Yes, I am aware of the two basic schools of thought in linguistics, thank you. When people use words as defined in the dictionary then it is still descriptive though.
No, I’m saying that is entirely unrelated to the question of him being sarcastic or not.
He doesn’t mean it, according to his own way of thinking at least. By our way of thinking he wants to destroy democracy, but not by his. That is why I’m saying he is being sarcastic.
Apart from my disagreement on this point voiced above, in that case people should change the dictionary. They haven’t. If everybody uses their own definition then language becomes useless.
Edit: typo
A leader, like a grifter, should always know how his audience is likely to respond to certain words, regardless of the spin he puts on them. Donald Trump, television personality and renowned wage-withholding, mouth-flapping scumbag, certainly has the experience to know this. To pretend that his delivery is not as much a part of the ruse as the code words themselves - that is, the part that’s for your benefit, rather than theirs - is to ignore what you already know about the man - the lies he’s told, the things he’s done, the way he acts, all of which obviously screams “smarmy creep”. You can predict every argument he makes in court based on what a bone-stupid lying simpleton he is as well, blurting out whatever comes into his head just so there’s a ball in the air he can try to distract you with. He’d be a good stage magician, if stage magic weren’t hard, but it is hard, so you can be assured he’s never tried it. He spent his whole first presidency watching tv.
Ok, well then. He was being sarcastic. I guess the rest of the overall trend of the cons and the Republican Party going ever more extreme, ever more fascist is just cosplay.