President Biden attended a fundraiser in San Francisco late Wednesday where protesters showed up calling for an end to US aid for Israel and a cease-fire in its ongoing war in Gaza.
I am not claiming that ALL democrats do that. Those who support Israel do not think that this is genocide. Better?
I think the use of word genocide in this context is just scoring easy political points, honestly. What is happening there is not standard situation, but it does not look even remotely close to the genocide where everybody agrees that it is genocide.
It is effectively genocide. While it’s true they aren’t specifically trying to wipe out everyone that’s ethnically Palestinian, what they are trying to do is remove everyone living in Palestine who isn’t Israeli either by murdering them or causing them to flee into another country. That’s close enough to genocide to qualify, particularly when the people murdered by the Israeli army are about half women and children.
Their ultimate goal is the complete elimination of the state of Palestine. Are you seriously going to claim that isn’t genocide?
@MxM111 much better thanks! Sorry for the misunderstanding.
As for political points though, I don’t see why you think no one is in earnest in this context.
The reason I call it a genocide is because in my honest opinion it meets Raphael Lemkin’s definition of genocide. Increasingly I believe it is appearing to meet the definitions used in international law.
I have a longstanding interest in human rights, including genocide prevention. As you can probably see from my post history - especially in @worldwithoutus - I’m interested in a wide range of human rights crises in the world today.
[Genocide] refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight. The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong. 1946. Raphael Lemkin
I can easily see arguments that this situation is not applicable here. Israel stated goal is security, return of the hostages and Hamas destruction. (Hamas on the other side openly state destructions of Israel and Jews “from the river to the sea” as its one of the main goals, i.e. actual genocide). None of this fits into above definition. And while it is true that there are members of parliament from ultra right that want to do ethnic cleansing (but not genocide) this is not official position.
So, again, I will argue that calling this complex situation genocide is an easy political point scoring. Does not help discussion of the actual problem.
@MxM111 I don’t find your arguments convincing. Incidentally, Hamas’s own genocidal intentions are irelevant to the argument about whether Israel is carrying out a de facto genocide against Palestinian civilians.
Out of interest what is the “political point” that you think I, as a non-American from the other side of the world, would even be making?
I don’t even subscribe in here, as I’m not interested in the minutia of US politics, it came up on All. As far as I can tell, unfortunately the bulk of both your main parties support and aid what Israel is doing.
Which right now happens to be a genocide that it’s everyone’s duty as a human being, to try to stop.
can easily see arguments that this situation is not applicable here. Israel stated goal is security, return of the hostages and Hamas destruction.
Who cares about their stated goals? Judge by their actions, and their actions are:
An artificially induced famine, with a quarter of the population suffering from acute food shortage.
Rape, torture and kidnapping (and of course wanton murder) of Gazans in the territories they’ve managed to capture.
Murder of at least more than 1% of the population. More likely much more because the hospitals who are supposed to count dead people aren’t functioning anymore, and there are still people buried under rubble.
Etc etc.
And then they’ve stated that they’ll make fucking “deradicalization camps”. This is official Israeli policy coming from the mouth of Netanyahu himself. Total victory is sounding awfully close to a final solution now.
@MxM111 that’s the No True Scotsman fallacy.
You’re basically claiming that no one who is “really” a US democrat is calling out the Gaza conflict as a genocide. But plenty are.
He’s claiming that if Democrats support it, it’s not genocide.
Way to distort my words!
If you’re pretending that Netanyahu isn’t committing genocide, your words are already distorted.
I am not claiming that ALL democrats do that. Those who support Israel do not think that this is genocide. Better?
I think the use of word genocide in this context is just scoring easy political points, honestly. What is happening there is not standard situation, but it does not look even remotely close to the genocide where everybody agrees that it is genocide.
It is effectively genocide. While it’s true they aren’t specifically trying to wipe out everyone that’s ethnically Palestinian, what they are trying to do is remove everyone living in Palestine who isn’t Israeli either by murdering them or causing them to flee into another country. That’s close enough to genocide to qualify, particularly when the people murdered by the Israeli army are about half women and children.
Their ultimate goal is the complete elimination of the state of Palestine. Are you seriously going to claim that isn’t genocide?
Uh no. Everyone except the US and friends consider this to be a genocide. The UN definition is easily met.
@MxM111 much better thanks! Sorry for the misunderstanding.
As for political points though, I don’t see why you think no one is in earnest in this context.
The reason I call it a genocide is because in my honest opinion it meets Raphael Lemkin’s definition of genocide. Increasingly I believe it is appearing to meet the definitions used in international law.
I have a longstanding interest in human rights, including genocide prevention. As you can probably see from my post history - especially in @worldwithoutus - I’m interested in a wide range of human rights crises in the world today.
I can easily see arguments that this situation is not applicable here. Israel stated goal is security, return of the hostages and Hamas destruction. (Hamas on the other side openly state destructions of Israel and Jews “from the river to the sea” as its one of the main goals, i.e. actual genocide). None of this fits into above definition. And while it is true that there are members of parliament from ultra right that want to do ethnic cleansing (but not genocide) this is not official position.
So, again, I will argue that calling this complex situation genocide is an easy political point scoring. Does not help discussion of the actual problem.
@MxM111 I don’t find your arguments convincing. Incidentally, Hamas’s own genocidal intentions are irelevant to the argument about whether Israel is carrying out a de facto genocide against Palestinian civilians.
Out of interest what is the “political point” that you think I, as a non-American from the other side of the world, would even be making?
I don’t even subscribe in here, as I’m not interested in the minutia of US politics, it came up on All. As far as I can tell, unfortunately the bulk of both your main parties support and aid what Israel is doing.
Which right now happens to be a genocide that it’s everyone’s duty as a human being, to try to stop.
Who cares about their stated goals? Judge by their actions, and their actions are:
An artificially induced famine, with a quarter of the population suffering from acute food shortage.
Rape, torture and kidnapping (and of course wanton murder) of Gazans in the territories they’ve managed to capture.
Murder of at least more than 1% of the population. More likely much more because the hospitals who are supposed to count dead people aren’t functioning anymore, and there are still people buried under rubble.
Etc etc.
And then they’ve stated that they’ll make fucking “deradicalization camps”. This is official Israeli policy coming from the mouth of Netanyahu himself. Total victory is sounding awfully close to a final solution now.
In order to be called genocide goals are crucial. If you are saying that it does not fit definition of genocide, then don’t use this word.