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- cross-posted to:
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Jesus. We’ll never hear the end of it from the right wing wackos. They’ll use this as justification for starting up the Nazi Youth
Not like they weren’t going to do it anyway. They’ll always use LGBT+ people and women existing and wanting to be full members of society as justification for whatever they pull.
O no, they changed the name of an organization I was never a part of and know nothing about.
I will now complain to every white stranger I come across.
PoV of white bald guy, they always think I’m on their team unless I’m dressed “flowery”. Then they just assume I’m gay and don’t talk to me. If I’m wearing camo tho? Best friend.
Gay members? ✅
Gay leaders? ✅
Girls? ✅Atheists? Um… er… well…
https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/10/03/belief-in-god-scouting/
As an atheist scout, I got around that by just lying to them. LOL. I guess I wasn’t a good scout.
Your article is from 2014. 10 years ago all of your other checks were NO as well. I can’t find anything recently about atheists with a quick search, just old stuff like that.
It’s still a core part of their membership:
Scout Oath “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.”
More:
https://dutytogodbsa.org/portfolio/what-does-duty-to-god-mean/
it is, BUT, if you read between the lines of the requirements, there’s plenty of room for pragmatic atheists (in pragmatic packs/troops). It’s not perfect, but overall Scouting has absolutely embraced inclusiveness.
Not when you’re interviewing for your Eagle they haven’t. Describing how you serve your higher power is still a question at the final interview before receiving it. Either you lie as an atheist, or you tell the truth and don’t get your Eagle. So either violate what it’s supposed to mean to be a scout (integrity and honesty) or you throw away what you’ve worked so hard for for years.
And that’s ignoring the fact that many troops are hosted via churches, especially in southern areas.
I can’t argue with that, but I’d have no qualms about “lying” about a ‘‘make believe’’ thing anyway. Tons of kids get their religious award and then never step foot in a church again. It would be very nice if kids could be honest about it though, even just picking a religion to earn the reward for as an academic exercise should be allowed I think learning about how much of a part religion can play in people’s lives, how it affects their judgement, is a good thing for a person to learn about, and perhaps that’s the final test. Respecting the requirement for the sake of the ceremony maybe. Even a (respectful) atheist would take their hat off in a place of worship if asked to.
Maybe a regional/troop thing or my memory is failing me? My interview in 2017 (Iowa) didn’t have a religious question in it iirc; there was a question on how I’d be giving back to my community. Don’t think my interviewers were extremely religious though.
They would only ask that in a religious troop. There are plenty of troops charted by secular organizations that won’t ask about that.
I wish there didn’t have to be any reading between the lines. They’re sooo close…
Very true. Sadly, probably not something they’ll budge on any time soon, but then again it’s a volunteer organization, so maybe there’s hope.
if you read between the lines
A big part of Scouting, at the organizational level, is fund raising. Without funds, you can’t afford the uniforms or the events or any of the things that make Boy Scouts a social group.
Historically, the Mormon Church has been a major contributor and facilitator of Boy Scout troops, particularly through the American Midwest and Southwest. Catholics and Methodists are other large scale feeders for the organization. Yes, you can read between the lines. But show up with your “pragmatic atheist” merit badge, and you’re not going to be particularly well received by other troops who came up through religious organizations.
Jews and Muslims haven’t have it particularly easy integrating with the Boy Scouts, either.
If they haven’t made a public statement that they’ve stopped excluding atheists, why should anyone assume they’ve changed their policies?
The rise of secularism
Start a 4-H Club. They’re run by state universities, so they’re subject to all their policies involving inclusivity and each club is centered on a specific topic. Want a camping/outdoor life club? Easy. Doesn’t have to be Ag related.
As a former 4-Her myself, the 4-H extension office in our region is run by a state university, but the clubs themselves are community-organized. Also, many clubs in our area were general, so you could do any topic covered by the extension office and be a part of the club.
I got my God and Country before I became an atheist. I think my dad still has it lol
My two favorite things
Besides family of course
I’m an Eagle and an atheist. I don’t remember being required to confirm a belief. But even though I was part of an organization in a very small very religious town, nobody seemed to care.
I lied as a scout too.
We-Blows? No thanks. You blows. I’m just here for that campfire smell on my school clothes during the weekdays.
Not very inclusive when atheist kids and gay troop leaders still told to GTFO.
The article addresses this - they’re admitting gay troop leaders and scouts, as well as girls. The article doesn’t mention anything on the atheist front, but as a member of team rainbow who went through scouting in the 70s and 80s, these are massive changes and I’d honestly be surprised if the org went to court over atheism.
IIRC they’ve previously fought in court for the right to exclude atheists.
No recent court cases because private organizations are allowed to discriminate.
They did the same for LGBT until recently.
Being a private organization does not grant you an unlimited right to discriminate, no matter how much the right likes to pretend it does. That’s why anti-discrimination laws exist. There’s loopholes orgs have tried to use, and protections vary by state, but just being a “private organization” doesn’t mean “do whatever prejudicial thing you want.”
Like I said, I don’t see this current iteration of the org fighting atheists in court.
All a kid has to do is say ’ I believe in a higher power’s and that’s that. Doesn’t even have to lie if he means ‘newtons third laws’ as the power
We should not be encouraging kids to lie in order to join an organization dedicated to building moral character.
The lesson is that moral character comes from within and not from authority figures.
Of course, we should never encourage kids to lie.
Now when it comes to leveraging the power of creative reasoning, flexibility of interpretation, and nuance of language - that’s an advanced rhetoric merit badge right there.
Semantic gymnastics, like moral character, comes from within ✨
My higher power is the fucking sun: Sol. He’s the highest power any of y’all gonna see.
Which is also why I never made it past Star Scout: why advance past the best?
You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci.
In Mafia Sicily, Joe Pesci pray to you
- Yakov Smirnoff’s less popular “Angelo Limoncello” character
You seen Raised by Wolves? Lol
Hah, indeed! I miss that show. It was so intensely weird, Necromancer design was so creepy and awesome.
Maybe if you take it as written but it will always be enforced unequally. In my rural ass troop there was a very heavy christian implication from scout leaders, and my parents. They didn’t end up forcing me to say it, but it was a very uncomfortable day of adults I was supposed to be able to trust repeatedly pressuring me to publicly announce my belief and helplessness in the face of a fairy tale. Not the only day I was religiously pressured either.
Does “5kW” count as higher power?
Went to my son’s summer bsa camp, there were many gay leaders and coordinators.
To be honest I never expected the BSA would attempt to reform itself as much as it has. I was in a very homophobic troop, a scoutmaster of mine vented to my grandma that all the queer people ought to be put up against the wall and shot. I’m glad things are improving but I don’t think I’ll ever see the organization in a positive light.
Their numbers are declining, which means revenue is declining. So the more inclusive they become, the more money they can make. It’s been an ongoing issue even before COVID hit (which hurt a lot of troops and packs).
Also surprisingly/unsurprisingly a ton of reform suddenly took place the moment the Mormons jumped ship and gave up leadership.
I can’t speak to the Mormon exodus. That was before my time. But yes, they’ve gone through a lot of reforms from what I’ve heard from the long-timers; and from all of the training (e.g., YPT, two-deep leadership, etc) I had to do.
Anyone has the right to be a Pawnee Godess
So is there a point to the Girl Scouts now? What are they going to do? Start accepting boys? Or try to widen their activities to compete with the Boy Scouts so they don’t lose membership?
Girl Scouts USA has always been a completely separate organization with no affiliation to Boy Scouts of America
Correct, but girls was their mark of differentiation. Without one, what will they do with this other organization going on their turf? Will they react? Adjust? That’s what I’m saying.
In the UK, The Scout Association went fully co-ed in 2007 and Girl Guiding remains a girls-only organisation. Both are doing just fine.
Ya, but I was curious how they avoid redundancy. Luckily, for anyone else who is curious, someone put the summary of their distinctions in a comment below.
Thanks. I don’t know a great deal about Girl Guiding’s programme in the UK, but I understand that there’s a similar distinction between it and the Scout Association’s programme as there is in the US.
Yes, and the question is how will this separate organisation react to them muscling in on their turf.
Well they already tried suing them when they began accepting girls and changed their name the first time to Scouts BSA, but that didn’t work. But truthfully the two organizations have different missions and methods.
Historically, a lot of girls who joined GSUSA thinking it was going to be Boy Scouts for girls were disappointed and would leave. GSUSA is more about empowering girls through community engagement and exploring careers. Yes there can also be camping, hiking, etc but these are more or less optional components, up to each troop to integrate. Rank advancement is based on age and grade level, while awards are based on merit.
Boy Scouts is much more focused on outdoor skills and citizenship. These are integrated into the program in that advancement in rank is based solely on merit and demonstrating proficiency with these skills. You can spend six years in Boy Scouts and never make it past Tenderfoot.
So for girls who want more emphasis on the outdoors built into their program, Scouting America would be the better option. For those that want more flexibility and are less outdoorsy, GSUSA is still an option. Both are good programs. I have kids in both. There are some things I like better about GSUSA and some I like more in Boy Scouts. I think Boy Scouts is a more challenging program overall, but GSUSA’s Gold Award is way more challenging to achieve than an Eagle project. I definitely prefer GSUSA not having a religious requirement.
Both programs will continue to adapt and change. Both have been experiencing declines in membership for decades anyway, so there’s bigger problems that they’re facing.
Thanks for the great summary! It answered my questions as well. I hope you don’t mind but I liked your comment so much that I put it on [email protected]
Which I think I’ll also subscribe to lol
Thanks! I think that’s my first Lemmy Best Of!
Interesting. Have GSUSA tried to mitigate the membership decline?
Exactly.
So is there a point to the Girl Scouts now?
You’re far less likely to be sexually assaulted.
That we know of…
Unless it’s by a bear.
Wait… I think I’m in the wrong thread.
Good. I’m slightly less embarrassed to be an eagle Scout now, though I was already the worst Eagle Scout ever, y’know, apart from the evil ones.
I moved before I could complete an eagle scout project but still had a blast in my extremely dysfunctional troop. Good life lessons for sure.
Dysfunctionalchaos is pretty fun. Dysfunctionalarmy and Dysfunctionalabuse are less so.
I just barely pulled it off, and only because my Marine-veteran dad decided to become the scoutmaster when I was 16 and still had Star, Life, and Eagle left to complete. All of my good scouting memories are from before then, though, because it was just camping and hanging out with your friends, with enough supervision and structure that nobody got killed.
Fox News meltdown in 3… 2…
is this a mandela effect or why do i specifically remember hearing that they had already done this like 4-8 years ago
edit: did my due research
In 2019, the Boy Scouts of America renamed its flagship program, Boy Scouts, to Scouts BSA to reflect its policy change allowing girls to join separate, gender-specific troops.[3]
On May 7, 2024, BSA announced that the organization will change its name to Scouting America. The change will go into effect on February 8, 2025.[5]
Its odd that apperently the first time they didi it they left BSA, in the name when the B stands for Boy.
If the whole point was to allow girls, why leave the word boy in the name?
I think two issues have caused them to take baby steps here.
First, there was a big lawsuit between the Girl Scout of America and the Boy Scouts of America. The Boy Scouts wanted to open up to girls, and the Girl Scouts felt like their turf was being threatened. That took years to resolve.
Second, scouting has deep personal ties for some folks. People can get irrationally emotional about changes to the program, as if there’s some sacred tradition at stake.obviously the B in BSA stands for BSA
GNU’s
Not
Unix
Why not just drop boy and have it called “scouts of America” or “youth scouts of America”? Scouting America sounds like a completely different thing altogether.
Have they found America yet? Send out another scout!
TIL they exited bankruptcy last April. I thought they were basically dead.
I don’t see anything here about preventing future sexual abuse, though, which makes me distrustful.
What would make you trustful?
Repressive rightists absolutely gonna lose even more of their shit now lol fuck ‘em
Great, separating kids is soo 1950’s.
In Europe we’ve had this for decades without any issue.
And apparently this scouting group does a lot more real scouting stuff, unlike the girl scouts which is basically child labour.
No issues?
You guys must be doing it way better over there. Over the course of many years, 12,000 children have been sexually abused in some way while in the boy scouts of America program.
That’s good, my niece is in Boy Scouts and enjoys it. The Girl Scout troops are all cookies all the time.
I’m an eagle scout from the days before they started accepting girls, I remember always hearing about how much cooler the BSA program was than girl scouts
Part of the problem is with how things are structured. BSA troops tend to stick around for a a while (the troop I was part of well over a decade ago is still going strong and just a couple years off from its 100 year anniversary,) so you end up with a lot of accumulated knowledge and resources over the years, people stick around after they age out of the program to stay on as leaders, they bring their own kids into the program years later, we had some 2nd or 3rd generation eagle scouts who had all earned it from the same troop their fathers and grandfathers did, we had a garage full of troop gear, a pretty decent troop library fell of merit badge books, old handbooks, various first aid and camping manuals, etc. some troops have their own cabins or campsites or other such properties, and the organization makes it very easy for new scouts to find an existing troop, pack, crew, ship, etc. to join.
Girl scouts often don’t have that. Sometimes they do, and when they do they can actually do a pretty amazing program, I’ve heard of some girl scout troops who’ve done some pretty cool stuff that honestly puts my own troop to shame, but more often they kind of tend to get formed with a group of girls around the same age and their mothers, never really do much recruitment, and when the girls either age out or lose interest and drop out the troop just kind of folds. They have to put a lot into the cookie sales and fundraising because they’re usually starting with no troop gear or other resources, there’s not much generational knowledge about how to run a scouting program, so they tend to just kind of have to figure things out on the fly. And a key part of the boy scout program was “boys teaching boys” the older kids in the troop take on leadership roles and help run the program teaching the younger kids, if you’re starting with a group all about the same age, you lose out on a lot of that dynamic.
Also as far as recruitment goes, at least back when I was in scouts, even if you waned to join an existing girl scout troop, it could actually be pretty hard to find them. BSA had their BeAScout website, you could find all the local groups, meeting schedules, and contact info pretty easily, girl scouts, at least at the time, didn’t have anything like that. I remember there was one time my troop wanted to reach out to some of the local girl scout troops to see if they wanted to participate in some kind of event we were having, and they had a hell of a time finding any contact info for them.
Also, some of the girl scout leader training requirements seemed a little excessive, maybe the situation has changed, but I remember hearing that they had to have leaders with specific training for pretty much any little part of their planned activity, like there was a specific training to go on camping trips, a separate training if you wanted to have a campfire on the camping trip, etc. and a lot of them were paid courses and I don’t think they were cheap. I don’t have anything against training in general, I had to do a few when I was a boy scout leader, but some of what I heard from the girl scout side of things sounded pretty excessive to me.
I feel like this was one of the best experiences of my young life. I get to go away from parents, I can actually decide what we do as a group, and I can go out walking and stuff? Great.
