• CookieJarObserver
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    1 year ago

    Lenin himself wasn’t the problem and the Statures for him are usually for being a Revolutionary and removing the Tzar.

    Stalin was the actual problem.

    • Eldritch@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Let’s be honest. Lenin is the problem. Karl Marx was a philosopher who spoke with a lot of figurative language. Which Lenin treated as all literal dogma. And I am here to tell you taking figurative work literally is one of the worst decisions you can make. Just like evangelicals who take the bible literally. When it isn’t even a coherent work of fiction. Let alone a solid system of rule and law.

      Absolute power corrupts absolutely. As can be clearly seen in every major country that has tried Lenin’s blind ideology. (Cuba had some special circumstances that kept it from spiraling as fast as the others. Plus Venezuela is still a bit early to call. But likely will get there) Or pretty much every major capitalist nation as well. With Lenin as the lynchpin consistently making bad decisions. (Stalin) I think it’s probably safe to say he had good intentions. But was far out of his depth and it showed.

      And I’m not some liberal, or fascist critiquing from the right. Just a pro social democracy slightly libertarian leaning socialist.

      • CookieJarObserver
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        1 year ago

        He wasn’t the coolest or nicest person, but definitely better than the Tzars, under him Russia had its best years.

        • Eldritch@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Perhaps if you only look at that small segment. But his legacy involves much more than only the best years. (And that’s being generous) While I’m not going to say that he was a net negative. I think it’s a lot harder to make the argument that he was a net positive. I think he did do some good for Russia. But it is inarguable that his ideology hurt a lot of people and help others hurt a lot of people as well. And it’s not something that can be hand wave away as the fault of capitalists. And certainly not someone to emulate or acolyte for in this day and age.

    • Ezergill@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Eh… He still was kind of an imperialist and wasn’t about to let any ex-Russian Empire territory out of his control, although some of them tried to cede and go independent

    • poVoq@slrpnk.net
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      1 year ago

      Lenin was a counterrevolutionary that brutally suppressed any dissent and directly placed Stalin (being well aware of what a person he was) in a position that would make his later takeover possible.

        • poVoq@slrpnk.net
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          1 year ago

          Lenin placed Stalin as an enforcer to do the dirty stuff for him. It would be very naive to assume Lenin didn’t know the risk involved of putting a former mob gangster in such a position.

  • Filthmontane@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    You’re showing statues of Lenin in countries in which the Dictatorship of the Proletariat failed to cede power to the working class and establish a socialist economic structure.

    When Lenin took power, Russia had nothing. It was in the middle of WW1, there were regular famines, almost everyone was illiterate, and it was in no condition to establish a socialist economic plan. So, Lenin created a temporary economic model called The Dictatorship of the Proletariat. This is a centrally planned economy designed to rapidly develop infrastructure and industry in a country that has none. Lenin was already ceding power to the worker’s councils when he died. Stalin decided he liked The Dictatorship of the Proletariat and did not cede power back to the worker’s councils.

    Those countries never experienced Communism. They never even experienced socialism. They destroyed those statues because they hated The Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Living in a system designed for a short temporary economic boom for decades is no fun.

    • Gxost@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      So-called “dictatorship of proletariat” was simply a terror. Lots of philosophers and religious elite was killed just because they weren’t compatible with communist ideology. Rich peasants who didn’t even use others labor were either robbed or killed. Peasants lost their land and had to work for the country. People got killed just because some anonyms told they did something bad. I know this because it happened to my ancestors. My grand-grandfather lost his house, communists left only one room for his family. His friends, all good people, dissapeared. His daughters never played with neighbor’s kids because of fear. My other grand-grandfather lost land and two horses. His brother was killed for not agreeing to give away his house. And my another grand-grandfather was killed because an anonymous letter. He was communist and thought he was safe as he did nothing wrong. His kids couldn’t get education because they were “children of the enemy of the people”. Much later my grandfather got a paper concluding that execution of his father was a mistake. It was horrible time, and lots of people thought the ones who were killed were “pests” or “enemies of the people”, so killing them was good and beneficial for the society.

    • CHINESEBOTTROLL@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      countries in which the Dictatorship of the Proletariat failed to cede power to the working class and establish a socialist economic structure

      Oh, so like every single other place that tried to implement that deranged system? Thank you for this very important distinction.

      • TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        It’s so very capitalist to look at failed attempts to escape capitalism which were sabotaged by capitalists as indication that the need to rebel is the problem.

        • gxgx55@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Failing to account for greed for power some people have is in itself a fatal flaw, to be honest. Anyone who advocates for the exact same actions and glorifies the USSR knows what they are doing, they’re hoping to come out on top after their desired revolution. Unfortunately, there are plenty of those kinds of people on this platform…

          • TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Are Leftists advocating for the exact same actions as the USSR, or are Capitalists gaslighting the ignorant into believing they are?

            • gxgx55@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              No, I’m just saying tankie infestations are so widespread and loud that they have a decent amount of leverage on what the average person thinks of communism, and tankie opposing leftists are either not loud enough, or not numerous enough.

          • phobiac@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Out of curiosity, how do you think governments in large capitalist economies (such as the US) properly account for greed for power and keep it in check? Do you think they are doing a good job on that front?

            • gxgx55@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Poorly, but not worse than a dictatorship(such as the USSR).

              What’s your point?

              • phobiac@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                You might want to turn that incredibly critical eye you’ve got for communism back in on capitalism, that’s all.

                • gxgx55@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  I… am?

                  What is this, I am against dictatorial abominations, so that means I am in favor of capitalist abuse? I am literally saying that opposition to capitalism is shooting itself in the foot by tolerating the existence of authoritarian “communists”.

                  Unless you’re an actual tankie, your words towards me make no sense.

              • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                That’s objectively false. USSR managed to provide everyone with food, housing, healthcare, education, and jobs. Nobody worried about losing their job and ending up on the street or that they wouldn’t be able to retire in dignity. People had reasonable work hours and enjoyed over 20 days vacation. None of the capitalist regimes around today are able to achieve these things.

                • PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@lemmy.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  “USSR managed to provide everyone with food, housing, healthcare, education, and jobs”

                  the victims of the holodomor would like a word

        • CHINESEBOTTROLL@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          failed attempts

          They didn’t fail. I mean you can criticize the ussr, but it was not capitalist

          which were sabotaged by capitalists

          What a weird thing to say. The USSR had sovereign control over the largest country in the world by far + a lot of allies. The capitalists can’t even get rid of north Korea. Its not the capitalists, the system is just shit

          the need to rebel is the problem

          I mean its fine to rebel, but if your goal is communism I will bet on another case of “tHatS nOT rEaL coMMUnIsM”

          • TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Communism doesn’t include a hierarchy of power enforced by violence. The two concepts are antithetical. The USSR was somewhere between capitalism and fascism.

            • SneakyThunder
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              1 year ago

              How do you prevent people from trading and owning property without violence?

              • catherine@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                1 year ago

                Owning private property is a thing in socialism/communism as far as I can recall - it’s just the means of production can’t be owned, so you don’t have asshats like Musk or Bezos.

              • TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Education. The reason that fascists are raising hell about wokeness is that Capitalism depends on ignorance.

                • SneakyThunder
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                  1 year ago

                  Ok, can you “educate” me why I need to get rid of my private property?

                  And fascists practiced economic policies of “corporatism”, not capitalism

            • CHINESEBOTTROLL@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              Communism doesn’t include a hierarchy of power enforced by violence

              Very convenient, since nothing will ever meet this standard, so you will be able to say “that’s not communism” for the rest of your life. Actually sounds like the definition on anarcho capitalism

              The two concepts are antithetical

              Maybe to you, but many of the people in power at the time believed they were on the way to communism

              USSR was somewhere between capitalism and fascism

              I know of two common definitions of capitalism: “a system mostly organized around a profit-motive” and “a system in which individuals are mostly free to enter into consensual contracts”. I don’t see how the USSR is close to either of these. It was closer to fascism, tho there are also large differences

              • TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                “Nothing will ever meet this standard” ~CHINESEBOTTROLL

                If CHINESEBOTTROLL says it, then it must be true.

                The two concepts are antithetical, even if the ignorant and corrupt claim it for themselves. Modern Christianity is antithetical to the Gospels of Christ, and that remains the case even as America slides into Christofascism. Fascists have always been steeped in irony because their core beliefs are based in the ignorance of ego.

                You having an ignorant concept of capitalism doesn’t have any bearing on reality, except that it causes you to ignore the atrocities of the system that keeps you fat and happy.

                • CHINESEBOTTROLL@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  the atrocities of the system that keeps you fat and happy.

                  You misunderstand. That is not capitalism but CRONY-capitalism. The two concepts are anrithetical. In REAL capitalism everyone respects the non-agression principle and therefore everyone is free. Crony capitalism is actually the LEAST capitalist system and is closer to socialism, because the government does stuff. I am very smart

      • bouh@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        What about all these capitalist places that fell into fascism? What about the successful capitalist states that are currently falling into fascism?

        • CHINESEBOTTROLL@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          What about them? The choices here are not “what we have now” vs “trust the people that want to try communism again”

          • bouh@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            My point is about the flawed argument : “communism is bad because the attempts have failed”. Well, there are more capitalist attempts that failed than communist ones, so the argument doesn’t hold.

            • CHINESEBOTTROLL@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              My argument is not “look how many attempts have failed” but “look, of all of these many attempts, every single one has turned into a kafkaesque nightmare”. At this point it is not even clear that “successful communism” is something that can exist in our world

              On the other hand, while many (depending on your perspective you might even say most) capitalist systems fail, there are absolutely some that work ok. Of course nothing is perfect in the real world. But the life of say a danish person is not only materially well off, but also free and full of dignity, which was true of none of the experiments in communism

              • bouh@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                I’m pretty sure many Chinese are well off, free and full of dignity.

                It’s also easier to be a successful country when you’re not under ambargo just because you’re not sold to capitalist companies. Did the US left even one communist country live normally?

                But more importantly, how many successful capitalist countries, today, aren’t going fascist at full speed?

  • TimeSquirrel@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    Technically, none of these countries experienced “communism”. They experienced tankie-led hell holes. Never trust a tankie. They’ll ally with you to fight for “the people” and then stab you in the back when they get a taste of power and don’t need you anymore.

  • CthulhuOnIce
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    1 year ago

    People in the comments with a completely fictionalized idea of Lenin as some kind of libertarian hippie who hated Stalin’s “authoritarianism” vs people in the comments with a completely fictionalized idea of Lenin as a “counterrevolutionary” (lol) or despot

  • zbych@szmer.info
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    1 year ago

    This statue in Poland was few weeks long artist performance made few years ago near place, where Lenin’s statue standed in Nowa Huta until 1989.

    • Akasazh@feddit.nl
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      1 year ago

      Technically correct. They were under Stalins Marxism-Leninism, which was supposed to be a placeholder until true communism could be implemented.

      But it’s a bit disingenuous to split that hair in this thread. The irony being that the latter are all countries that got to experience the kind of gouvernemental structure that Lenin facilitated.

    • BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      You can argue if they had sunshine scenario communism all day, but they certainly was under the oppressive thumb of USSR.

      • SpiderShoeCult@sopuli.xyz
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        1 year ago

        Do not feed the troll. Strange fellas, lying on the internet, arbitrarily defining communism to suit their rose-colored ideology is no basis for a system of debate.

        True debate stems from a knowledge of history, past events and conditions that led to them, not some farcical comment (as the one you are replying to).

        If I went around in communist times claiming I knew what Marxism-Leninism was just because I read a manifesto, they’d send the secret police after me.

      • 🦄🦄🦄@feddit.de
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        1 year ago

        I didn’t say anything about communism being good or bad there, just that none of those countries ever lived under communism.

    • PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      True Communism is impossible to sustain in the real world. it requires someone unimpeachable at its head. It affords too much power and no accountability to those in charge. Even if it were to start out well, sooner or later corruption would seep in. Communism is impossible while human greed exists

      • Dr. Jenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube
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        1 year ago

        Capitalism is impossible to sustain in the real world. It’s literally killing the planet which will result in the extinction of the human race.

              • MiddleWeigh@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                I’m not really too educated on theory, but this seems disingenuous. Yes it has failed, and so has our current capitalism, ime.

                I think in USA, we have a unique situation to give it another spin, and for it to be successful.

                The only way to reign in the runaway greed train is to introduce some type of socialism, and that is a natural progression en route to “true” communism. Which, imo, is going to take a very long time, realistically.

      • 🦄🦄🦄@feddit.de
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        1 year ago

        There would be no one “in charge”. Communism and anarchy go hand in hand.

        human greed

        This is the lie that we have been fed all of our lives under capitalism. It’s so ingrained in us that some of us can’t even imagine a world of helping each other thrive instead of exploiting each other.

              • 🦄🦄🦄@feddit.de
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                1 year ago

                You didn’t say true communism is impossible, you said true communism is impossible to sustain. Why are you moving the goalpost instead of just taking the L? Lol

        • MiddleWeigh@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I’ve recently begun to dive into my own indoctrination, and it is quite wild how effective it has been.

          I think if anything, capitalism goes against our nature. But also, tbf, it’s worth pointing out, and I only have an anecdote for you, that people do seem to behave differently in large groups compared to smaller, where the larger group tends to lend itself to our worse nature, but even that can be atributed to external forces in some regards.

          i’ve just began to dig into theory… Peeling layers of capitalist suffering complex off in the process.

          Tbh I don’t know. Communism feels like our natural state, and getting back there is going to be extremely hard with the hole we’ve dug for ourselves.

          In my recent dive into the literature, I’ve found that I’m a pretty extreme leftist… But growing up in a capitalist society ive learned to shun people, avoid at all costs, and I’ve become basically a hermit, denouncing all forms of govt as futile, especially given our current circumstances as a species.

          Sorry for the rant. I’m still eating my shell.