Not trying to defend him. But sexual self-determination of 17 or 18 year old girls is a strange topic. Usually most people, especially the girls themselves are all for it. We generally are too. Unless it is our own daughter, a sister, a god-daughter or someone like that. Than we do not want them to actually exert this right.
And we do love to use love affairs of couples like this as ammunition if we want to discredit someone, don’t we?
The girls themselves are mostly “all for it” when it’s people roughly their age. There are exceptions but most girls that age see 30+ year olds as lame old dudes.
Most 30+ year olds aren’t going after high school girls either. That’s why we all cringed at David Woodson’s line in “Dazed and Confused”.
The people who don’t want them to “exert this right” are the responsible parents, friends and community who know that a 30+ year old dating a teenager is creepy AF.
The few people who actually support this are mostly rationalizing.
What about an 18 year old and someone who is 30 doing consensual sexual activities together? They are both adults according to law. I am legitimately interested in people’s thoughts here. 30 seems to be the most common example, for instance.
There’s not much to discuss. The vast majority of the time it’s creepy grooming and we all know it.
It’s technically legal and there may be cases when it’s genuinely a case of consent and mutual attraction but those are the exceptions.
Attempts to find the exact line are futile. “Half your age plus seven” is a rule of thumb, not a clear border.
I mostly want to have these discussions because there has been such pushback from the right in the areas of relationship equality, marriage, age of consent, etc. I want us to be able to look at people who have been convinced and really be able to say, “Well no, because of this reason.” Maybe I’m wrong, though I do feel there’s some merit to making things clear for those who don’t see it in the same light.
There is no single reason. It’s the sum of many reasons. They’re too many to list exhaustively but when we see a concrete example the vast majority of people come to the same conclusion on creepy vs appropriate.
When there isn’t a clear line, trying to define one is misleading. You can always find some couple somewhere on earth with an arbitrarily large age gap where people will agree that it’s the result of informed consent. People then try to make the argument that this justifies all relationships with that age gap even though most relationships don’t have whatever extenuating circumstances made the one example palatable.
Large age gaps are creepy. Whenever someone has to ask if a particular age gap is also creepy the answer is almost always, “Yes.”
I’ve been the young party and the old party, same age gap (massive), it’s fine and fun and people are just weird. Sex is somehow treated like this horrific thing but also totally no big deal in fact here’s my Funko POP! dildo collection, people are so very weird.
I guess each person is different. I have zero sexual interest for women under (at very least) 25 (i am slightly older than him at the time they meet)
Even if they look older than they are, i still have no interest because there is too much different life experience and expectations. I just don’t click (as a friend let alone as lover or partner).
Why 18 and not 17 or 25? Well society decided this is a (imo conservative, could have been higher) threshold for old people to have sex with young people.
Also 17 year old people can totally have sex with people of similar age (and we all have done 🙂) so it is not really about sexual self determination but rather avoiding predatory/manipolative behaviors of (much) older partners/lovers
I’m 46. The women in MILF porn feel too young for me sometimes. Really. I want to see women around my age in porn more. That’s who I’ve always been most attracted to- women approximately the same age as me.
Some societies did. Retardistan is notn “The Society”. Retardistan also decided that you can volunteer to go to war and get killed for your country and that at the same time you are not old enough to have a beer. Maybe Retardistan is not the measure of all things.
In Germany, while it never is ok for a person in a position of power to abuse this power, regardless of age or sexes, the age of consent is generally 14, 16 at the latest. Not everybody is happy with that of course, but maybe one should be a little more open to see more colors than black and white.
Regarding Seinfeld: Was he actually in a position of power over this girl? How so?
What Germany has to do with this? What war has to do with this?
If you weren’t a trustworthy internet stranger i would make conjectures that this is a topic that hits you personally and you live in Germany. And you are talking about yourself here.
But good you are a trustworthy internet stranger that totally would not look in all possible provisions and exceptions for justifying their actions
I personally am not interested in women that are more than 5 or 6 years my senior or junior. But I don’t judge. Why did I bring up the army, you ask? Only as an example of 'muricans deciding what’s age-appropriate. Joining the army and going to war? 17 year olds will do. Having a beer and shagging the neighbour? NO! That’s immoral if you are not at least 21 and/or about the same age as the neighbour! Driving a SUV that has hundreds of horse powers and weighs multiple tons? 16! It just doesn’t make any sense. So maybe turn at least down the judgyness a nudge. So Seinfeld had a fling with a consenting adult. So what?
Judge him for being the most overrated and unfunny comedian ever, not for this. But as a German, who am I to judge humor. I am sure some people even appreciate his “humor”.
'Muricans and their opinions about age are really, really strange and shouöd not be a point of reference for anybody.
No. We want them to have healthy relationships. Being groomed is not healthy. It’s also nearly impossible to have that kind of an age difference without grooming being involved. This is why we have Romeo and Juliet laws to set boundaries for teenagers.
When I was a teen I would have been “all for it” with adult women. But maybe adults should not groom children regardless of that. The power dynamic is gross.
It’s the position of power that might play a role, so as a rule, if you might be in position of power (boss, gov authority figure, or just older), make really really sure everything is out in the open and talked about. It’s a necessary topic to understand consent.
Absolutely. It is really not ok for someone in a position of power over a another person to leverage that power for personal gain. The age and gender of the “victim” only plays a minir role in that scenario, however.
Also: Was Seinfeld in a position of power over her?
I get crucified every which way possible any time I bring up the fact that they didn’t start dating until she was 18.
Instead of moving the goalposts like “well it’s still grooming and/or fucked up somehow”, or “not all brains are fully developed at 18” or “he’s subjectively too old” or whatever, be mad at the law and try to change it if you really disagree so much. Best of luck getting anywhere with that though, I don’t think it’s a popular opinion.
Not trying to defend him. But sexual self-determination of 17 or 18 year old girls is a strange topic. Usually most people, especially the girls themselves are all for it. We generally are too. Unless it is our own daughter, a sister, a god-daughter or someone like that. Than we do not want them to actually exert this right. And we do love to use love affairs of couples like this as ammunition if we want to discredit someone, don’t we?
The girls themselves are mostly “all for it” when it’s people roughly their age. There are exceptions but most girls that age see 30+ year olds as lame old dudes. Most 30+ year olds aren’t going after high school girls either. That’s why we all cringed at David Woodson’s line in “Dazed and Confused”.
The people who don’t want them to “exert this right” are the responsible parents, friends and community who know that a 30+ year old dating a teenager is creepy AF.
The few people who actually support this are mostly rationalizing.
For the sake of expanding the discussion:
What about an 18 year old and someone who is 30 doing consensual sexual activities together? They are both adults according to law. I am legitimately interested in people’s thoughts here. 30 seems to be the most common example, for instance.
There’s not much to discuss. The vast majority of the time it’s creepy grooming and we all know it. It’s technically legal and there may be cases when it’s genuinely a case of consent and mutual attraction but those are the exceptions.
Attempts to find the exact line are futile. “Half your age plus seven” is a rule of thumb, not a clear border.
I mostly want to have these discussions because there has been such pushback from the right in the areas of relationship equality, marriage, age of consent, etc. I want us to be able to look at people who have been convinced and really be able to say, “Well no, because of this reason.” Maybe I’m wrong, though I do feel there’s some merit to making things clear for those who don’t see it in the same light.
There is no single reason. It’s the sum of many reasons. They’re too many to list exhaustively but when we see a concrete example the vast majority of people come to the same conclusion on creepy vs appropriate.
When there isn’t a clear line, trying to define one is misleading. You can always find some couple somewhere on earth with an arbitrarily large age gap where people will agree that it’s the result of informed consent. People then try to make the argument that this justifies all relationships with that age gap even though most relationships don’t have whatever extenuating circumstances made the one example palatable.
Large age gaps are creepy. Whenever someone has to ask if a particular age gap is also creepy the answer is almost always, “Yes.”
I’ve been the young party and the old party, same age gap (massive), it’s fine and fun and people are just weird. Sex is somehow treated like this horrific thing but also totally no big deal in fact here’s my Funko POP! dildo collection, people are so very weird.
I guess each person is different. I have zero sexual interest for women under (at very least) 25 (i am slightly older than him at the time they meet)
Even if they look older than they are, i still have no interest because there is too much different life experience and expectations. I just don’t click (as a friend let alone as lover or partner).
Why 18 and not 17 or 25? Well society decided this is a (imo conservative, could have been higher) threshold for old people to have sex with young people.
Also 17 year old people can totally have sex with people of similar age (and we all have done 🙂) so it is not really about sexual self determination but rather avoiding predatory/manipolative behaviors of (much) older partners/lovers
I’m 46. The women in MILF porn feel too young for me sometimes. Really. I want to see women around my age in porn more. That’s who I’ve always been most attracted to- women approximately the same age as me.
Some societies did. Retardistan is notn “The Society”. Retardistan also decided that you can volunteer to go to war and get killed for your country and that at the same time you are not old enough to have a beer. Maybe Retardistan is not the measure of all things.
In Germany, while it never is ok for a person in a position of power to abuse this power, regardless of age or sexes, the age of consent is generally 14, 16 at the latest. Not everybody is happy with that of course, but maybe one should be a little more open to see more colors than black and white.
Regarding Seinfeld: Was he actually in a position of power over this girl? How so?
You are really not talking about this any more.
What Germany has to do with this? What war has to do with this?
If you weren’t a trustworthy internet stranger i would make conjectures that this is a topic that hits you personally and you live in Germany. And you are talking about yourself here.
But good you are a trustworthy internet stranger that totally would not look in all possible provisions and exceptions for justifying their actions
I personally am not interested in women that are more than 5 or 6 years my senior or junior. But I don’t judge. Why did I bring up the army, you ask? Only as an example of 'muricans deciding what’s age-appropriate. Joining the army and going to war? 17 year olds will do. Having a beer and shagging the neighbour? NO! That’s immoral if you are not at least 21 and/or about the same age as the neighbour! Driving a SUV that has hundreds of horse powers and weighs multiple tons? 16! It just doesn’t make any sense. So maybe turn at least down the judgyness a nudge. So Seinfeld had a fling with a consenting adult. So what? Judge him for being the most overrated and unfunny comedian ever, not for this. But as a German, who am I to judge humor. I am sure some people even appreciate his “humor”.
'Muricans and their opinions about age are really, really strange and shouöd not be a point of reference for anybody.
No. We want them to have healthy relationships. Being groomed is not healthy. It’s also nearly impossible to have that kind of an age difference without grooming being involved. This is why we have Romeo and Juliet laws to set boundaries for teenagers.
When I was a teen I would have been “all for it” with adult women. But maybe adults should not groom children regardless of that. The power dynamic is gross.
It’s the position of power that might play a role, so as a rule, if you might be in position of power (boss, gov authority figure, or just older), make really really sure everything is out in the open and talked about. It’s a necessary topic to understand consent.
Absolutely. It is really not ok for someone in a position of power over a another person to leverage that power for personal gain. The age and gender of the “victim” only plays a minir role in that scenario, however.
Also: Was Seinfeld in a position of power over her?
I get crucified every which way possible any time I bring up the fact that they didn’t start dating until she was 18.
Instead of moving the goalposts like “well it’s still grooming and/or fucked up somehow”, or “not all brains are fully developed at 18” or “he’s subjectively too old” or whatever, be mad at the law and try to change it if you really disagree so much. Best of luck getting anywhere with that though, I don’t think it’s a popular opinion.
Sure, he just spent a year grooming her, there was nothing at all going on before that magical day. If you believe that I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Really? How so?
He didn’t, that’s the point. Relationships don’t work like that.