• JokeDeity@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    If this is what a fake libertarian is, there’s no such thing as a real one. This is every single libertarian I’ve ever conversed with.

    • Action [email protected]@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      You need to find yourself some Left-Libertarians.

      You’re usually looking for some type of Georgists or some flavor of small-scale Social/Communist Anarchy. Most of them are way more able to grok the concepts of things like “natural monopolies” or “Tragedy of the Commons” and other fun market failure states. They tend to focus more on the existence of the market itself as a tool for creating competition that drives innovation and efficiency while giving less lip service to the idea that just because you accumulated a bunch of capital from an idea that’s its a good idea.

      If I scam a bunch of people, I’ve gathered a bunch of capital, but that doesn’t mean I’ve actually produced anything of value for anyone. If I refined chemicals in my house and dumped all the waste in my neighbor’s pool, I’m not actually competing in an even market, because I’ve burdened my neighbor with the cost of waste remediation while I get to keep all the profit.

      • Kalcifer@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        You’re usually looking for some type of Georgists

        Georgism is actually a very interesting political philosophy. I hadn’t heard of it before you mentioned it in your comment. Thank you for sharing!

        “natural monopolies” or “Tragedy of the Commons”

        These are, indeed, two very important, and critical issues. When one is advocating for libertarianism, capitalism, and the like, they mustn’t be ignored.

        If I refined chemicals in my house and dumped all the waste in my neighbor’s pool, I’m not actually competing in an even market, because I’ve burdened my neighbor with the cost of waste remediation while I get to keep all the profit.

        This point doesn’t actually hold much, if any, ground, as it is fundamentally at odds with the philosophy of libertariansim. Libertarianism is about equal freedom of the individual, yes, but that does not grant one the right to burden other’s with un-consented cost.

    • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      When I considered myself libertarian, I was not a fan of police brutality, pro LGBTQ rights, more open border, and legalized drugs. I still hold all of those views but have gotten a lot more to the left from am economics standpoint. A lot of that is die to my econ degree.

      That said, post 2016 I definitely noticed a ton of faux libertarians who were very defensive of Trump. If you voted for Trump, I don’t think you can consider yourself libertarian. I think I recall hearing that the whacko New Hampshire libertarians basically took over the party. Those guys are a bunch of racist fascists.

      • Kalcifer@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        If you voted for Trump, I don’t think you can consider yourself libertarian.

        I wouldn’t go so far as to draw that line at voting, as one could certainly be voting strategically – it’s possible that they don’t agree with many, if any, of Trump’s policies, but they were of the belief that voting for Trump would push policy in a direction that would be in their interest – this is, of course, a symptom of FPTP, and it could be possibly solved with a ranked ballot. That being said, I do completely agree that if one is a vehement supporter of Trump, and his policies in a similar fassion to the usual MAGA group, then they cannot call themselves a libertarian in good concience – there are many policies of, and actions by Trump that are very un-libertarian.

    • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      This means you have never interacted with a libertarian then, just a ashamed conservative/republican wanting to be labeled something else.

    • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Generally I lean libertarian in terms of pure individual choice. Worship no gods or a million, be single or marry 20 people at once, put whatever substance you want in your own body, kneel for the flag or shed a tear, yes I will use your pronouns.

      Every man a king, that’s my philosophy.

      The rest of the stuff yeah. I want food stamp programs, I want a secular neutral state, I want antidiscrimination laws, I dont support a company dumping pollution on us.

      • _wintermute@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        You just described being a leftist. Why are libertarians so afraid of being put on the progressive left? You are not a libertarian lmao

        • Kalcifer@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          For the sake of clarity in this conversation, would you mind defining “leftist”? It is rather ambiguous.

          • kameecoding@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            yes, and it’s not libertarianism.

            a political philosophy that advocates only minimal state intervention in the free market and the private lives of citizens.

            food stamps, anti-discrimination laws and anti-pollution laws are all a big fucking no-no for libertarians.

            • Kalcifer@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              food stamps

              Food stamps are not mutually exclusive with libertarianism on the whole. Libertarianism, very generally, can be described as encompassing the idea of maximising equal individual liberty, while ensuring that one cannot impart costs on another without their consent, or proper compensation for damages. Food stamps are more of a socialist view which puts it in the category of, what is commonly referred to as, “left-libertarianism”.

              anti-discrimination laws

              Correct, this would be incompatible with libertarianism – one has the right to choose with whom they associate, and what they say.

              anti-pollution laws

              This is incorrect. One cannot impart costs on another without their consent, or proper compensation for damages.

              • kameecoding@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                This is incorrect. One cannot impart costs on another without their consent, or proper compensation for damages.

                who is gonna enforce that? lol

                  • kameecoding@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    courts? you mean a body of a government?

                    can’t have that, also once the court has done it’s thing, who’s gonna enforce what the court said? because police is dirty socialism and part of the government.

            • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Ok it helps when you read what I wrote not what you want me to have written.

              For the individual I want as much freedom as we can give them. Everything above that I want regulated and I want welfare programs.

              • kameecoding@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                For the individual I want as much freedom as we can give them. Everything above that I want regulated and I want welfare programs.

                Okay, so you are a leftist, like me. In fact, you might just be a socialist, or even a communist.

                • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  My economic beliefs are: if it works do it, if it doesn’t do not. I don’t trust ideology and I don’t trust economists. Food Stamps work in that people don’t generally starve anymore, the free market works for video games in that people generally can buymore than they would ever hope to play.

                  Only do things that work.

      • Kalcifer@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        I want antidiscrimination laws

        For the sake of clarity, what do you specifically mean by this?

        I dont support a company dumping pollution on us.

        This is actually not a libertarian belief. It is of the libertarian philosophy that one cannot impose a cost on others without their consent, or proper compensation for damages.

      • diprount_tomato@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Drugs actually worsen the quality of life for everyone. You just need to go to some streets in San Francisco to know it

        • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Dont believe you and I wouldn’t care if it were true. I am not a utilitarian.

          As for San Francisco, have you considered the radical idea of building more housing for greater housing needs?

        • somerefriedbeans@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          No, what is bad is how people who use drugs are treated like criminals and thrown in jail. People don’t suddenly decide they want to be addicted to crack or something… But you know… Curiosity kills the cat. These people need help, not jail time. In countries where drugs have been decriminalized, there’s very little usage of hard drugs. Iirc, when users are spotted, they are offered treatment instead of a jail sentence.

          Decriminalization works and it has been proven… Yet there are still so many countries that refuse to take the step

          • Kalcifer@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            what is bad is how people who use drugs are treated like criminals and thrown in jail

            Agreed.

            • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              dealers get jail

              Then we arrest a 17 year old POC male because of a dime bag was calculated using police math to be 1 billion dollars street value and clearly dealer level.

              And “therapy” turns out to be taxpayer funded rehab places where people pet fucking horses to get over their Marijuana “addiction” and atheists are forced to pray.

              • MiddleWeigh@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                I went to state funded rehab outa jail… They were putting people with multiple clean years under belt on suboxone. 🙄 while pushing hard on AA, which does come across as a religious cult to me, while the principals are mostly sound, the people sent into these places to proselytize, don’t have anything other than a Christian god to project into a “higher power”…instead of it being you and the people and world around you.

                • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Because the war on drugs disproportionately impacts certain races over others. I mention race because race is relevant to the issue.

                  But yeah thanks for stereotyping in a comment telling at me for stereotyping. I enjoy seeing my point made.

                  • diprount_tomato@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Unless you all forget the skin colour of the person next to you, your country will stay in the same shitty situation.

            • Kalcifer@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              OP wasn’t insinuating that you were saying drug addicts are criminals. How I interepereted what they said was that what you were describing wasn’t bad in OP’s opinion, and what actually was bad was that drug addicts are treated as criminals.

        • Kalcifer@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          This is a strawman argument. I don’t believe that OP was arguing that drugs increased anyone’s quality of life, they were instaead arguing, and rightly so, that access to drugs is a in line with the libertarian philosophy.

    • C126
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      1 year ago

      How many have you talked to? I’m guessing the root cause is your sample size is too small.