The Israeli government insists that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault on October 7, 2023. But investigators say the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny. Catherine Philp and Gabrielle Weiniger report on eight months of claim and counter-claim

The Israeli government insists that Hamas formally sanctioned sexual assault on October 7, 2023. But investigators say the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny. Catherine Philp and Gabrielle Weiniger report on eight months of claim and counter-claim

Talk of rape began circulating almost before the massacres themselves were over. Much of it came from what Patten would later call “non-professionals” who supplied “inaccurate and unreliable forensic interpretations” of what they found, creating an instant but flawed narrative about what had taken place.

Meanwhile, the political establishment has opened a fresh battle with the UN over what the Patten report didn’t say: that sexual violence was beyond reasonable doubt, systematic, widespread and ordered and perpetrated by Hamas. Israeli advocates for the female survivors are now warning that the country’s refusal to co-operate with a full and legal investigation, which the carefully worded report was not, threatens the prospect of ever finding out the full truth about the sexual violence of October 7 and delivering justice for its victims.

It was not a legal investigation, Patten explained, as Israel had not allowed one: that mandate could only be fulfilled by the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, which Israel has refused to work with since its inception. She hoped that would change.

Patten made it clear there was sufficient evidence of acts of sexual violence to merit full and proper investigation and expressed her shock at the brutality of the violence. The report also confirmed Israeli authorities were unable to provide much of the evidence that political leaders had insisted existed. In all the Hamas video footage Patten’s team had watched and all the photographs they had seen, there were no depictions of rape. We hired a leading Israeli dark-web researcher to look for evidence of those images, including footage deleted from public sources. None could be found.

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  • TheFonz@lemmy.worldEnglish
    31·
    6 months ago

    I had this moment of realization when they came out the gate and accused me of Zionism or defending Israel-none of which I care for. In fact I find the actions of Israel despicable in this conflict. It was then that it became clear @[email protected] is more here for the team sports aspect of it rather than having a factual discussion to determine the truth of the matter. Right now the conversation is so diluted not much on the conflict can be discussed here because the team sports value has taken precedence over anything else, and personally I’m tired of playing team sports.

    Best of luck.

    • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
      41·
      6 months ago

      Yeah. I’m honestly a little bit just curious about how their brain works, at this point.

      • TheFonz@lemmy.worldEnglish
        51·
        6 months ago

        I’ve told you multiple times I’m ok calling it an apartheid state. This is like the 3rd or 4th time now. Go back to playing team sports now.

        • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
          31·
          6 months ago

          I don’t think it’s team sports. I think it’s one of two things:

          1. Sometimes people just have a kind of pathology where they like to argue on the internet, because it’s satisfying, and they have to “win” or present as a winner in every conversation, and so facts and reality (even demonstrable reality like what the other person said or what the primary sources say) sort of have to bend to what would let them “win” by making some claim or accusation.
          2. I looked over Linkerbaan’s user a little bit and it has a little bit of a singular focus on Democrats and Biden (“Democrats are just Republicans these days” “Biden is actively violating Leahy law” “Trump isn’t much different than any generic Republican”). Aside from picking crazypants arguments about Hamas not raping anybody, the only other real trend to their comments is domestic politics with a don’t-vote-for-Democrats-fellow-leftists flavor that seems oddly familiar.

          I initially thought they were way too committed and energetic about this stance they’re taking about the UN report, to be any kind of shill, but now I’m less sure. They’re certainly posting with a level of energy and aggressiveness that makes a lot more sense if it’s their job, and usually people who have come by their counterfactual opinions organically have some kind of structure built up in their head for why it makes sense to them (Like they would say the UN report is crazy and biased and can’t be trusted for some reason – they wouldn’t just insist for 2 days that it says a huge variety of very specific things that it doesn’t say, and then just not address it on any level when someone points out the contradiction while continuing to go HAM on arguing about it. The second one sounds more like disinformation poster behavior to me.)

          I don’t really know. They don’t act like most shills (or who I believe to be shills) that I have encountered. Like if you just looked at their comments arguing about Hamas, you probably wouldn’t predict that their other singular area of focus in comments would be Biden and the Democrats. But the more that I look back over the conversation + take a look over their user, the more it makes sense to me as an explanation.

          (Oooh… I just looked a little further; they also use the phrase “blue MAGA,” and if you look back past the current conversation there’s a lot more of a focus on Biden and Democrats and quite a concerted effort to link Israel’s policies to Biden. The plot thickens.)

          • FiremanEdsRevenge@lemmy.worldEnglish
            3·
            6 months ago

            (Oooh… I just looked a little further; they also use the phrase “blue MAGA,” and if you look back past the current conversation there’s a lot more of a focus on Biden and Democrats

            I’ve seen some of the other usual suspects use “blue maga” as well, along with the same biden and democrats rhetoric.

            • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
              21·
              6 months ago

              Yeah. It was virtually unknown on Lemmy up until around May 20th, when return2ozma and a few other accounts all started using it at the same time. It’s sort of dropped off since then; I think their effort to make it catch on failed. But there are a few accounts that still like to drop it into conversation in perfectly natural fashion every now and again.

              I think like a lot of propaganda, it’s not meant to have any wild level of success on its own; it’s more just one little piece that’s designed to combine with a hundred other little pieces to create a sizable overall impact.

          • TheFonz@lemmy.worldEnglish
            31·
            6 months ago

            Yeah that’s a good assessment. It’s the aggressive and highly energetic and/or frenetic level to it that is particularly odd.

            I’ve had lots of discussions or disagreements on this platform with various people, but the vitriolic nature of their comments indicates either a) very young person b) aesthetic / team sports argumentation for the sake of argumentation. Like arguing for the sake of arguing. Can be fun for some people I guess.

            • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
              31·
              6 months ago

              Yeah. For me the really notable factor is the weirdness of the disconnect. Like if you look at the person’s claims and study the flow of the conversation back and forth, it starts to become really obvious that they don’t actually have factual belief in the things they are saying. But they still want to continue the conversation and invest a bunch of energy into it. Like, a lot, over a long period of time.

              So… why? There aren’t too many plausible explanations for those two things in combination, and then coming alongside “blue MAGA” and Democrats this and Biden that, it all of a sudden clicks into focus and it all makes sense. Now that I’m looking at it more, I’m pretty sold on shilling being the explanation.

              • TheFonz@lemmy.worldEnglish
                21·
                6 months ago

                Well, when I say team sports I mean it as an aesthetic. There are plenty of noble and lofty revolutionary causes to attach onto these days and honestly it’s really laudable that young people are becoming more invested politically.

                But there is a contingent that in my opinion is only tagging along the ride for the perceived social capital that is gained by joining a team. Right now, Palestinians are victims and targets of atrocities being perpetuated by the IDF. Right now the in-group is committing a sort of map and territory switch where the aesthetic of the cause supersedes the goals it is trying to achieve.

                A good example to ground this is political streamer Hassan Piker: He lives in a multimillion dollar mansion, drives a Porsche, and touts himself as a socialist/communist. He has a sickle and hammer backdrop in a lot of his merchandise but he wouldn’t be the product of what he is without milking capitalism to its full extent.

                That’s why when I call out Linkerbaan for larping, I mean it’s just an aesthetic or as a performative production. The map has become the territory.

                • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
                  4·
                  6 months ago

                  Cool! I love the “Never Play Defense” game, and would be happy to bring some other random assertion into the mix to counterbalance your random new assertion. But, I have exhausted the amount of effort I want to expend on this right now. Another day, sure; feel free to reach out any time.

                  • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
                    35·
                    6 months ago

                    You keep bringing up the same stale points debunked a million times in every thread. Even in the post it’s mentioned the Patten report is not a proper investigation.

                    You’re the one that doesn’t want to defend the fact that the UN doesn’t acknowledge the Patten report as evidence.

        • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
          14·
          6 months ago

          You don’t appear to be very okay with it seeing how people calling out israel is a very sensitive subject.