Jfc my heart goes out to everyone who is financially coerced into getting one of these policies. This is not okay. People who have a voice need to push back on this. Your own devices should never be used against you.
Yeah was about to say, my phone can’t even tell whether I’m walking or cycling or taking a bus, I have exactly 0 hope it could tell whether I’m driving or not other than not being connected to my car’s bluetooth which will be exactly what they are doing here of course!
Motion sensors don’t provide localization. Gps on cellphones are only really accurate to a few dozen meters.
You can couple gps and motion (and changes in gps location) to fudge it. Which is why when you diverge off the route navigation provides… it takes it a moment to figure it out. In the display, they “know” you’re on the road so it doesn’t have to be that accurate, they just guess what lane you’re in based on direction and such.
They’re certainly not going to know what seat you’re in.
And how does the phone know if you just take left turns faster? How does it know if you’re in the left or right lane? It has no way of knowing what the forces are, or if that variation is caused by something else.
Your phone has no idea which side of the car it’s on, and insurance companies and their apps really don’t care.
He is correct that the forces are different. The equation for centripetal force is Fc = Mv2/R.
Radius is the distance from the focal point, and each seat will be different distances.
So he is technically correct that seat position could be calculated in perfect conditions with accurate measurements.
But none of the data that reaches this service will be remotely accurate or complete enough to make that determination. It will only have one passengers phone data, and even if it collected everyones phone data, phone sensors have a margin of error well above what the difference would be. GPS data is only even marginally accurate up to something like 6ft, and really not even then. Then cars have a lot of other factors like suspension and compression in seats, etc, that would absorb enough of the forces to muddy the data even if accurate sensors were everywhere.
Tl;dr; another cocky person that took a few physics courses but walked away with a poor understanding of real world applications talking out their ass.
If the gyroscope moves while the car is in motion, they can be pretty sure that you’re not driving. Or you’re texting and driving, but if the car is going a certain speed and you’re texting, you’re going to have bigger problems very soon.
What if my phone is sitting in the cup holder in the center console… What if I sit it on the passenger seat and it slides of on a turn and slams into the dash? Will they assume I’ve been in some horrible accident.
Second rule in the book of the road is driver controls the stereo. Now more cars you have to plug in or connect Bluetooth so it’s safe to assume that if you’re connected to a car stereo you’re the driver
Not sure if this is a joke. For years my phone was the only one paired with the Bluetooth on my wife’s car as I like to play music when I drive it but she couldn’t be bothered to mess with it and listens to the radio. That doesn’t mean that I am usually the driver in the car though as she usually drives it. It was paired for the few times she wasn’t in the car and I had to use it.
I love how there’s all these science and software experts who think this is impossible, when it is clearly very easily possible. It’s not a question of if it’s good (it isn’t) or if they should (they shouldn’t).
Hiding your heads in the sand and collectively saying they can’t - in a pro-privacy group - is insane. It’s like reading about how you can hack an air gapped computer and having a bunch of Amish say it’s impossible.
Maybe figure out how they are first, then talk about what to do about it. But this collective “nuh-uh!” is nuts.
Nobody said it’s impossible, its not possible with the consumer grade hardware in your phone and what an app will have access to. Sometimes it even has issues just figuring out if you’ve turned your phone to landscape or not
Also, nobody said they weren’t going to try, the claim that they can do it with any degree of accuracy is BS
You should look in a mirror, because you’re the densest one here, you’re just not getting it
It’s possible with high precision sensors in a device meant for that purpose i.e. NOT your average phone
Its NOT possible with any sort of degree of accuracy with the commodity grade sensors available in most consumer available devices
The “app” that they “pinky promise” is accurate, isn’t. It can tell when you’re moving and coupled with GPS even what speed and that’s about it. Any promises about being able to determine where you are in the vehicle are a lie.
The sensors built-in to your phone are done so for the job of determining the position of the device relative to YOU the PERSONNOT relative to where YOU AND your phoneARE in the physical space i.e. is it in your pocket, are you trying to rotate to landscape, is it upside down. NOT where you and your phone together are in physical space i.e. what seat you’re in.
But this kind of thing is ripe for unintended consequences at best and flat out bad data at worst.
When I drive I put my phone in the center so I can see the map. If me and my passenger’s phones are in the center, who is marked as driving when I get into an accident?
From there, why stop at one phone? Let’s put several phones in the back seat, including mine. Hell, let’s have a burner phone that I use only for driving that has a throw away account. Or let’s go back to old fashioned maps and GPS devices while our phones are turned off. Meanwhile, at home, I’ve spun up a virtual device where it is very peacefully driving a route. Perfectly. Then I have another virtual device that is driving a different route on the other side of the world driving erratically.
These companies are forgetting that the data from phones are data from devices, not people. If you’re going to spy on me, I’m going to make you fucking earn it.
My friend keeps her phone in a purse, which she puts on the floor of the passenger side whether she is driving or a passenger sitting shotgun. It’s always in the same place. When we take Ubers she usually sits in the middle so she can see, and puts the purse between her feet. Thus her phone is almost never on her person in the car.
I suspect this is true for a lot of people who use purses or other bags as every day carry. Or perhaps it’s actually in the passenger seat, lots of people use that for bags when driving solo.
So while it may be true for you that your phone is on you while a passenger, that’s a ton of people it isn’t true for at all, who would then be in the “bad data” camp.
Well now you are just moving the goalposts with that “does she put it in the back” nonsense.
Again, her purse is always in the same spot when she’s either driving or the passenger sitting shotgun. How are they going to sort out her data when it’s almost always in the same spot?
And the same for anyone else with that habit. Or who uses the passenger seat to hold their bag.
there are four options to sit in, generally speaking.
you’re saying both people in the front have the same gyro data. That’s fine; my point is she’s not in the back - or if she is, such as in a taxi or uber (which is the original situation) - it’s detectable.
do you remember when phones started automatically remembering where you parked? they did that by knowing a) your speed changing b) the pedometer counting (among other things). My point is: this isn’t as impossible as you and others seem to claim. That’s it.
It’s illegal to put my phone on the passenger seat??? Please, show me what law is be violated, because that sounds utterly ridiculous.
But the point I’m making is that you can’t make an assumption on who is driving based on where the phone physically is. I could be a passenger or my phone could be on the passenger seat or just sitting in the center console while I drive. I could be a passenger and my driving friend is using my phone for GPS on the dash.
There are way too many confounding variables to begin making guesses on driver based on phone sensor readings.
in some parts of the world, it is, yes. And they put up cameras to catch and fine people for it. Ridiculous or not. 🤷♂️
two different things: yes, you can make a plausible determination of a person’s position in a car based on sensors. yes, you can also not have enough data to make that determination.
It’s absolutely possible with things like usage and gyroscopic sensors. You want to say software could never figure it out, I’ll leave you to it. It’s high school level physics.
(X) Doubt
Don’t worry. The next paragraph provided an email address where you can send reports of inaccuracies for them to review.
Jfc my heart goes out to everyone who is financially coerced into getting one of these policies. This is not okay. People who have a voice need to push back on this. Your own devices should never be used against you.
Yeah was about to say, my phone can’t even tell whether I’m walking or cycling or taking a bus, I have exactly 0 hope it could tell whether I’m driving or not other than not being connected to my car’s bluetooth which will be exactly what they are doing here of course!
Oh good, then I’m safe. My phone doesn’t connect to my car’s Bluetooth unless is configure it every drive.
iPhone eh?
I think that we are talking about insurance policies that make you install an app on your phone directly. The app publishes directly to the Internet.
Damn thing won’t even track steps when I’ve got a purse on.
Motion sensors don’t provide localization. Gps on cellphones are only really accurate to a few dozen meters.
You can couple gps and motion (and changes in gps location) to fudge it. Which is why when you diverge off the route navigation provides… it takes it a moment to figure it out. In the display, they “know” you’re on the road so it doesn’t have to be that accurate, they just guess what lane you’re in based on direction and such.
They’re certainly not going to know what seat you’re in.
doesn’t need to, nor does localisation matter for this topic.
it’s a matter of centrifugal forces on turns.
And how does the phone know if you just take left turns faster? How does it know if you’re in the left or right lane? It has no way of knowing what the forces are, or if that variation is caused by something else.
Your phone has no idea which side of the car it’s on, and insurance companies and their apps really don’t care.
if you say so. you’re completely wrong, but whatever helps you sleep at night.
You have a proof ?
Yeah ur insurance rate sky rocketing
How do centrifugal forces determine which seat you’re sitting in inside of a car? Everyone in the car is going to be experiencing the same forces.
He is correct that the forces are different. The equation for centripetal force is Fc = Mv2/R.
Radius is the distance from the focal point, and each seat will be different distances.
So he is technically correct that seat position could be calculated in perfect conditions with accurate measurements.
But none of the data that reaches this service will be remotely accurate or complete enough to make that determination. It will only have one passengers phone data, and even if it collected everyones phone data, phone sensors have a margin of error well above what the difference would be. GPS data is only even marginally accurate up to something like 6ft, and really not even then. Then cars have a lot of other factors like suspension and compression in seats, etc, that would absorb enough of the forces to muddy the data even if accurate sensors were everywhere.
Tl;dr; another cocky person that took a few physics courses but walked away with a poor understanding of real world applications talking out their ass.
nope.
I bet you think the inside and outside of a record turn at the same speed.
I actually don’t. Can you describe how sitting in a vehicle driving forward mimics the force of a record spinning in a circle?
if your cars don’t turn, how do they leave your driveway? 🤦♂️ jeezus you people are dense as heck.
I always place my phone in the center console anyways, there would be zero way to tell who is driving. Not that I’d ever install such an app…
You would do that in a taxi?
I mean it wouldn’t really make a difference if the phone is in my pocket and I’m sitting still or if the phone is in the center console.
If the gyroscope moves while the car is in motion, they can be pretty sure that you’re not driving. Or you’re texting and driving, but if the car is going a certain speed and you’re texting, you’re going to have bigger problems very soon.
I’ll just put my phone in the trunk in the future.
What if my phone is sitting in the cup holder in the center console… What if I sit it on the passenger seat and it slides of on a turn and slams into the dash? Will they assume I’ve been in some horrible accident.
Second rule in the book of the road is driver controls the stereo. Now more cars you have to plug in or connect Bluetooth so it’s safe to assume that if you’re connected to a car stereo you’re the driver
Not sure if this is a joke. For years my phone was the only one paired with the Bluetooth on my wife’s car as I like to play music when I drive it but she couldn’t be bothered to mess with it and listens to the radio. That doesn’t mean that I am usually the driver in the car though as she usually drives it. It was paired for the few times she wasn’t in the car and I had to use it.
I love how there’s all these science and software experts who think this is impossible, when it is clearly very easily possible. It’s not a question of if it’s good (it isn’t) or if they should (they shouldn’t).
Hiding your heads in the sand and collectively saying they can’t - in a pro-privacy group - is insane. It’s like reading about how you can hack an air gapped computer and having a bunch of Amish say it’s impossible.
Maybe figure out how they are first, then talk about what to do about it. But this collective “nuh-uh!” is nuts.
Nobody said it’s impossible, its not possible with the consumer grade hardware in your phone and what an app will have access to. Sometimes it even has issues just figuring out if you’ve turned your phone to landscape or not
Also, nobody said they weren’t going to try, the claim that they can do it with any degree of accuracy is BS
“nobody said”… and then goes on to say it’s impossible 🤦♂️
jfc you people. 🤦♂️
You should look in a mirror, because you’re the densest one here, you’re just not getting it
It’s possible with high precision sensors in a device meant for that purpose i.e. NOT your average phone
Its NOT possible with any sort of degree of accuracy with the commodity grade sensors available in most consumer available devices
The “app” that they “pinky promise” is accurate, isn’t. It can tell when you’re moving and coupled with GPS even what speed and that’s about it. Any promises about being able to determine where you are in the vehicle are a lie.
The sensors built-in to your phone are done so for the job of determining the position of the device relative to YOU the PERSON NOT relative to where YOU AND your phone ARE in the physical space i.e. is it in your pocket, are you trying to rotate to landscape, is it upside down. NOT where you and your phone together are in physical space i.e. what seat you’re in.
yes, with your average phone.
I’m sorry you failed highschool physics.
doubt, but I’d believe it.
If we can tell if we are in the front or backseat due to how it feels when you go around corners and such, so can your phone.
driver side vs passenger would be the same deal.
of course, this is presuming the phone is on your person. Which, if you weren’t driving - it would be.
But this kind of thing is ripe for unintended consequences at best and flat out bad data at worst.
When I drive I put my phone in the center so I can see the map. If me and my passenger’s phones are in the center, who is marked as driving when I get into an accident?
From there, why stop at one phone? Let’s put several phones in the back seat, including mine. Hell, let’s have a burner phone that I use only for driving that has a throw away account. Or let’s go back to old fashioned maps and GPS devices while our phones are turned off. Meanwhile, at home, I’ve spun up a virtual device where it is very peacefully driving a route. Perfectly. Then I have another virtual device that is driving a different route on the other side of the world driving erratically.
These companies are forgetting that the data from phones are data from devices, not people. If you’re going to spy on me, I’m going to make you fucking earn it.
that’s my point. Or a holder of some kind.
as opposed to passengers who basically never put their phones in the center console.
especially for a taxi or uber. That would be insane.
again: the question is: are you a driver or a passenger? And I’m saying that that distinction is very plausible to make.
if your sole goal is to make it harder to tell in an accident, sure. This is just sensor data, not clairvoyance.
My friend keeps her phone in a purse, which she puts on the floor of the passenger side whether she is driving or a passenger sitting shotgun. It’s always in the same place. When we take Ubers she usually sits in the middle so she can see, and puts the purse between her feet. Thus her phone is almost never on her person in the car.
I suspect this is true for a lot of people who use purses or other bags as every day carry. Or perhaps it’s actually in the passenger seat, lots of people use that for bags when driving solo.
So while it may be true for you that your phone is on you while a passenger, that’s a ton of people it isn’t true for at all, who would then be in the “bad data” camp.
right, but your friend doesn’t put their purse in back seat if they’re sitting in the front, or visa versa, right?
no person driving should have their phone on them when they’re driving, so it’s an easy spot to exclude. The rest is logic, sensors and probability.
Well now you are just moving the goalposts with that “does she put it in the back” nonsense.
Again, her purse is always in the same spot when she’s either driving or the passenger sitting shotgun. How are they going to sort out her data when it’s almost always in the same spot?
And the same for anyone else with that habit. Or who uses the passenger seat to hold their bag.
no moving of goalposts.
the topic is “driver or not”, nothing more.
there are four options to sit in, generally speaking.
you’re saying both people in the front have the same gyro data. That’s fine; my point is she’s not in the back - or if she is, such as in a taxi or uber (which is the original situation) - it’s detectable.
do you remember when phones started automatically remembering where you parked? they did that by knowing a) your speed changing b) the pedometer counting (among other things). My point is: this isn’t as impossible as you and others seem to claim. That’s it.
Why wouldn’t I have my phone on me while driving? Where else would it be?
in a phone holder attached to your windscreen or vent.
Why? What do I need a phone for while driving, that shit is distracting.
So if I throw my phone on the passenger seat whenever I’m not using my GPS, I must never be driving!
I’m not sure what you’re saying, but it sounds like the opposite of what I am, and what’s the opposite of what’s legal in most places.
It’s illegal to put my phone on the passenger seat??? Please, show me what law is be violated, because that sounds utterly ridiculous.
But the point I’m making is that you can’t make an assumption on who is driving based on where the phone physically is. I could be a passenger or my phone could be on the passenger seat or just sitting in the center console while I drive. I could be a passenger and my driving friend is using my phone for GPS on the dash.
There are way too many confounding variables to begin making guesses on driver based on phone sensor readings.
in some parts of the world, it is, yes. And they put up cameras to catch and fine people for it. Ridiculous or not. 🤷♂️
two different things: yes, you can make a plausible determination of a person’s position in a car based on sensors. yes, you can also not have enough data to make that determination.
It’s absolutely possible with things like usage and gyroscopic sensors. You want to say software could never figure it out, I’ll leave you to it. It’s high school level physics.