Far-left definitely isn’t that - “we’re gonna make sure everyone’s needs are met” is literally a general leftist thing. Assuming you’re trying to portray tankies and fascists, a more accurate depiction would be “we’re gonna make sure working class needs are met with an iron fist and extermination of anyone potentially rebellious”.
That being said, holy shit there are so many bad takes in this thread
Respectfully, I don’t think tankies are the farthest left, or even left at all. They seem far too concerned with statism and too unconcerned with uplifting the worker.
I also think that there is space for more than one type of far left.
EDIT: Witness below: a lengthy conversation about states, colonialism, whose team is worse, and other masturbatory topics. What average worker is going to engage with this ideology? Dorks.
I also think that there is space for more than one type of far left.
Yeah I did want to originally include this in my original comment - there’s ideologies like Anarchism that is also far-left, and same can be applied to the right, with their ancaps and libertarians though both of those are rarely ever referred to as far-right (wonder why’s that).
Not just tankies but ml. We should all be working towards communism generally. No question. And ML governments have helped industrialize their regions as capitalism did. Again no question. But in that process the ML governments have been oppressive and violent as most capitalist. Combined with the fairytale of the administrative state magically withering on it’s own. It’s safe to say that the vanguard of Marxist Leninism the Soviet Union splintered and fell to fascism of the administrative state. With China repeating their mistakes. Making they’re already unaccountable administrative State even more unaccountable. Appointing their president for life even as he moves into the Forbidden City and The Emperor’s Palace. Now largely emperor in all but name.
Honestly I think the reason they get shown so much is because there’s not a lot of other clear iconography relating to the left. There’s the upgrades fist. But it has been adopted for a number of other groups and movements. Outside of that most of the truly recognizable ones were adopted by the leninists.
i think whats missing from most anti-ml takes here is colonialism and the overbearing influence of the west everywhere else.
china wouldnt be able to break away from the washington consensus like it does if they didnt have enough force to show and use whenever necessary to keep it at bay.
likewise with pretty much every long lasting, large scale socialist experiment so far. people forget what happens to the likes of allende when they try funny business and can’t back it up with actual force.
i also have a problem with using ‘tankie’ for serious discussion because its a meaningless word at this point.
If things were perfect they would be perfect. However that’s circular reasoning/tautology. Everyone struggles with factors internal and external. And ultimately it’s not someone else’s responsibility what they do. So bringing up the West in a critique of marxist leninism he’s largely pointless and at best only a crutch. Because yes we can absolutely critique the west or similar things. The fact that they do them doesn’t make Marxist leninism better by comparison.
And let’s be clear. China and the Chinese government needed no help exploiting their proletariat for the benefit of the ascendant bourgeoisie. The West did not force that or cause it.
My critique of marxist leninism is not a defense of capitalism or the west. I see them as largely equal and opposed. Yes the West has been shitty to countries that have adopted Anti-Capitalist Stances. And I absolutely believe it is largely unwarranted and counterproductive.
Where it is warranted ironically one only has to look to Vladimir Lenin to understand why. The forceful annexation of much of Eastern Europe post World War ii. The division of Germany. No one from the West forced that. Remind me. Former Soviet block countries, what were their General feelings about the Soviet Union and Lenin / Stalin after it dissolved? I remember even until recently A lot of them tearing down statues of those men. Was it because they love them so much and wanted to have pieces of them in their house to worship? It wasn’t because they failed to deliver on their promises, and were largely hated and despised by survivors and family of people marched off to Siberia to die was it?
quite the contrary.
force is needed because things arent perfect, hence why i say the analysis misses neocolonialism.
Why, after that force is used to successfully establish themselves, those countries never actually empower the lower classes?
China has been secure on the world stage for decades, yet their people still work as wage slaves for the benefit of the western bourgeoise interests.
take a look at how quality of life, health, education and most aspects of society improves vastly under socialism.
also take a look at the time scale at which such things happen.
we also have capitalism.
To the contrary of your contrary. The French revolution. One of the most influential formative revolutions that helped influence and shape Karl Marx’s philosophy and much of marxist thought. Showed otherwise.
Sure sometimes Force can be needed to break free. But if you need Force to govern you are doing it wrong.
the french revolution didnt have a previous, but strong empire trying to stop it at all costs. you are subestimating neocolonialism. my country has a history of being interfered with by the empire at the hint of wanting free. and that won’t narrow it down.
there is a reason one country in the planet spends almost as much as everyone else combined on their military
I understand your definitions, but I I think many Americans don’t use the same definitions. OP is pointing this out.
If we look at specific issues it’s easy to see. If I say that we should have universal health care, or UBI, many people would say that I’m way far out on the left. What if I said that we shouldn’t allow people to be multimillionaires? Would that make me way far out on the left? Again, to a lot of people yes.
So your definitions might be reasonable, but they aren’t universal, and I think if you keep that in mind you can appreciate OP more.
I think the issue is not so much definitions, but who actually has a voice. Currently in US politics the far left does not wield any influence, but the far right does hold some sway over the Republican party.
I suppose some on the right toss out accusations of being far left, but that’s just empty rhetoric.
If I say that we should have universal health care, or UBI, many people would say that I’m way far out on the left.
Just to support your point (and for the benefit of others not from the US), even people who are sympathetic to your views will often use the adjective “radical” when describing them if you espouse such beliefs. Everyone who votes R will cal you a radical and a high percentage of democrats will too.
And that’s before you even get to the stuff about overt wealth redistribution.
Bernie Sanders is the radical left to a great many in the US. (personally I consider him just the right amount of left 😁 )
Look at the neck of the chad. He has a commie symbol so its clearly that far out. Not just universal health care or UBI
Allllllll the fucking idiots of all political flavors descended on this thread, fucking hell
Dumbest takes I’ve seen in months, and they’re all different takes.
I’m not a both-siders, but I was just arguing with a leftist yesterday that was saying we should jail people for voting for trump.
So I’m hesitant to pretend there are not wack jobs on the left who would happily exterminate people for their political gain.
The left absolutely has nut jobs. That’s why it’s important that us normal, reasonable left people call them out and check their shit.
The right let their right wing nut jobs take over. That’s why we’re in this mess.
The right didn’t “let their nutjobs take over,” as Capitalism has continued to decay Capitalists have consolidated power. There wasn’t a cognizant decision to shift towards fascism, but fascism itself arose as the material conditions of society declined.
Fascism doesn’t spread because “it’s an appealing idea,” fascism specifically is a result of Capitalist decline, and pretending it’s just something that happens randomly makes combatting it difficult.
The second layer to both-sides is false-equivalence fallacy. A majority of Republicans believe in the Big Lie; their literal nominee tried to overthrow a free & fair election.
Let that sink in: A MAJORITY of Republicans believe 2020 was stolen.
Do you see the broader Democratic party or any of their high-level leaders calling for jailing people voting for Trump? No.
Being fooled is not a crime. Trump (along with many accomplices) is a criminal that needs to be prosecuted and thrown in jail, but unfortunately the morons who have fallen for his lies aren’t breaking the law by doing so, so any claim to have them jailed is anti democratic authoritarianism.
You can pretend all you like the problem is that there have been leftist wack jobs that very much did exterminate people for political gain.
Things would be so much easier if we could simply argue about ideology without anyone getting the ‘clever’ idea that you can simply exterminate everyone who disagrees and end up with a harmonious society of people all working towards the same ideal.
Voting is a sacred right in our society, even if it’s for a treasonous corrupt felon wannabe fascist. I don’t understand why anyone would give him their vote but that just makes them an idiot
It seems like you’re the one jumping from someone wanting jail time to those voting to overthrow our democracy, all the way to exterminate. Yeah, I suppose those people exist but a huge difference is there is no widespread support for left wing nut jobs
I don’t remember what politician was convicted a few years back where a lot of people kept trying to make the point that a left wing criminal is a criminal that we all want brought to justice, whereas too much right wing criminal behavior is ignored or even lionized. Both sides are very much NOT the same
It seems like you’re the one jumping from someone wanting jail time to those voting to overthrow our democracy, all the way to exterminate.
It’s part of the submission.
But I’m not equating the two sides, but every right winger I know, including Trump supporters who I unfortunately have way too many of in my family, wish no ill will on anyone and don’t believe trump does. So this claim that there is widespread support for exterminating people on the right does not reflect the reality I experience.
No one says that. But Trump has repeatedly said variations of acting as dictator, subverting the constitution and the checks and balances that are fundamental to our government. He is guilty of instigating treason. He repeatedly acts racist and extremely misogynistic. He should be held responsible for the hundreds of thousands of excess Covid deaths during his term when he denied reality and prevented a coordinated response. He has decades of history with contract fraud and likely tax fraud. His speeches are falsehood after falsehood and he contradicts himself depending on what his audience wants to hear. He was a disaster of a president, and certainly this time around no one can claim to not know what to expect.
I don’t know your family, but how can they support the constitution and vote for some who ignores it and has announced fascination as a goal and has already committed election fraud , how can they claim to not be racist and elect a racist, how can they claim to not be sexist and elect someone that disdainful of women’s rights, how can they elect someone noncoherent and expect anything, how can they believe they will get whatever they think he promised when he also promised the opposite and has a history of not following through with either? How can they claim to be nice people and elect someone with a history of spite and who has already professed revenge on people not sufficiently loyal?
That I think it’s the scariest thing we have right now: a lot of people that forgot we need to live together and trying to shove your ideology down others throats is not the way to go, no matter how right one believes to be.
Yeah that person you talked to is crazy. But let’s also not act like the Republicans haven’t been calling for a civil war if Troomp looses.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2024/07/23/republican-calls-for-civil-war-if-trump-loses/
That was a senator who said that
So like, yeah jailing people for thinking diffrent is wrong, but…
I feel they mean well…most of them anyway. They don’t want shit to go further south and feel jailing Trump to be the correct course. Admittedly, I do agree to an extent, though only because he keeps weaseling his way out of taking real responsibility for all of his bullshit. Mostly because we rolled the judicial equivalent of a Nat1 with Cannon.
The comment argued for jailing Trump voters, not Trump himself in this case.
Oop, my mistake. Thank you for pointing that out.
we should jail people for voting for trump
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Donald Trump is launching a full fascist coup on the American democratic state and if he wins he will kill millions of people, primarily those who are poc, lgbtq, and foreign born. We need to stop him at all costs.
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Hey, listen, who you vote for is your call and I’m not here to judge. Its just an election, I don’t see why you need to make a federal case out of it.
These two views are in sharp contradiction with one another.
So if Trump is proposing ideas going against the foundation of the State and its constitution we should not let Trump run. How is jailing people for voting Trump a solution?
What if someone told you aid to an enemy of the state is the definition of treason. The man tried to overthrow our government with an insurrection, there is no question he is an enemy of the state. (So all who have donated to his compaign and broadcasted for his rise to power have committed treason)
I don’t think we should jail Trump voters, but they should at least make aware that just because they believed his/medias lies, doesn’t make them immune from all ignorant actions. The first civil war set precedent that you don’t need to punish them, but any members who partook who held office prior to the attempt (currently still ongoing) should not be able to hold office in the future as written in the amendment MADE for insurrectionsts. (Even this seems extreme with current events)
Now as we learned from the last time, we should ignore our previous actions and follow what Robert E Lee suggested, that all statues of Trump & the confederates should be taken down (flags as well) and should not be built nor allowed outside museums/textbooks in the future.
His reason was because history showed countries heal faster that way. Ours hasn’t healed since the conferency, we did it wrong.
Make possession charges harsh, so they hide again, but next time when the NAZI flag and the KKK burning crosses came to light, they would legally shut it down before it gained traction and spread their hate so far and wide.
So if Trump is proposing ideas going against the foundation of the State and its constitution we should not let Trump run.
He was President for four years and he did a lot worse than “propose ideas”. Perhaps we should throw him in jail.
How is jailing people for voting Trump a solution?
It strongly discourages people to support a fascist who threatens my existence.
So we have an undemocratic state if voting one out of two candidates gets you in jail. This is literally the playbook definition of an autocracy. He should be judged by the actions he took and shouldn’t be above the law like the supreme court decided but judging the voters is crazy
This is literally the playbook definition of an autocracy. He should be judged by the actions he took and shouldn’t be above the law like the supreme court decided but judging the voters is crazy
He’s not above the law. Congress Impeached him for it and 57 Senators (less than the 67 needed) voted to convict (including 7 Republicans). But the Democrats rushed it for political reasons. The Nixon Impeachement process took 9 months and it had several hearings evidentiary and others that gave Republicans who didn’t and couldn’t support impeachment at the start of the process justify impeachment to their constituents. Impeachment is a political process, and Dems politicked like morons.
So we have an undemocratic state if voting one out of two candidates gets you in jail.
The Tolerance Paradox is only resolved when you refuse to tolerate intolerance.
Then drop the candidate but not the masses voting for change.
Since we’re wishcasting here, I’d say “¿Por Qué No Los Dos?”
But I agree, getting fascists off the ballot would be the highest imperative. I’d also say that we’re not going to do either, so getting angry at someone online for suggesting either one seems silly.
I said nothing about not judging them. They are, at best, gullible rubes. I judge them very harshly. However, I was very explicit that it was about jailing them.
So, sure, if you just make up my position, I can see how you can make it contradictory. Good for you.
They are, at best, gullible rubes.
They know exactly what they’re asking for. It isn’t as though the homophobia and xenophobia of the American right is some kind of secret. Persecuting minority groups is a signature issue.
However, I was very explicit that it was about jailing them.
And if we were voting on changing the speed limit, I’d agree that taking voting to the level of incarceration would be extreme. But we’re talking about policies of mass incarceration, seizure of property, and execution of dissidents. That’s the threat that a future Trump Presidency is supposed to present.
So either I was lied to and Future President Donald Trump isn’t an existential threat to my existence. Or the reports are sincere and a vote for Donald Trump is the same as a vote for my summary execution.
If a lynch mob shows up outside your door and starts voting on whether or not to string you up, what would you say the remedy is? Lobby them not to kill you? Politely ask them to leave? Or show up on the porch with a shotgun and tell them all to piss off?
They know exactly what they’re asking for.
For some, sure. For most? It reads more like a justification to act like an authoritarian and jail political opponents. It sounds exactly like when people like trump say the left is coming after Christians.
But we’re talking about policies of mass incarceration, seizure of property, and execution of dissidents.
We’re not tho. You’re just assuming this will happen. I agree with you it’s a distinct risk and we must stop trump because it’s far greater than a zero percent chance. But he’s not outright calling for it. These people believe he is protecting them and their way of life. Dumb? Yes. Criminal? No.
But can we stop and laugh for a second about you pointing to assumption of mass incarceration as a justification for outright calling for mass incarceration? Which does, pretty clearly, demonstrate my point.
For most? It reads more like a justification to act like an authoritarian and jail political opponents.
When the political opponents are, themselves, violent domestic terrorists and anti-democratic authoritarians, you’d be a fool to wait until they’re installed in the highest levels of government before taking action.
You’re just assuming this will happen.
I am being told “Go out and vote against Trump or this will happen”. This was the primary Ridin’ With Biden argument and the reason we were supposed to swallow a little like genocide in Gaza for the greater good. There were a bunch of memes and everything. People insisting that a Trump Presidency would amount to a domestic holocaust. People insisting that failure to vote for the Democrat or even a vote for a third party candidate was a tacit endorsement of this pending holocaust.
But can we stop and laugh for a second about you pointing to assumption of mass incarceration as a justification for outright calling for mass incarceration?
Sure. The joke is funniest right down on the US/Mexico border where we’ve got toddlers behind razor wire, because the governors are all pandering to a political base that wants to end birthright citizenship and deport anyone browner than a cup of milk.
When the political opponents are, themselves, violent domestic terrorists and anti-democratic authoritarians, you’d be a fool to wait until they’re installed in the highest levels of government before taking action.
Except we’re not talking about terrorists and anti democratic authoritarians, we are talking about jailing people for the way they vote. You are, by claiming people should be jailed for the way they vote, being the anti democratic authoritarian.
Again, we both agree that trump is a risk and we need to stop him. But jailing people for falling for his rhetoric and commiting the crime of voting makes you a risk to our democracy as well. The only difference I see between you and trump, on this point at least, is you’re explicitly espousing it. He’s just using a dog whistle.
Except we’re not talking about terrorists and anti democratic authoritarians
We’re talking about their donors, their canvasers, and their supporters.
Again, we both agree that trump is a risk and we need to stop him.
We both agree he should be stopped. I’m not sure we agree on actually stopping him. It seems like we’re just going to roll the dice on the election and hope for the best, because doing anything else would be unfair to the fascists.
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Extermination and jailing people aren’t really equivalent.
You have plenty of out and about fascists who would vote for trump, actual groypers and nazis and shit. As a kind of, probe question, right, do you think it would be pertinent to go and actually kill those motherfuckers, given the kind of, borrowed time on which we’re living right now, the lack of resources, right, lack of popular support from a mainstream political system and their ability to so clearly co-opt it in this moment, and impending climate change which means we can’t waste time on them really more than is necessary. Those are some of the justifications that somebody might give for exterminating out and about fascists, right, even if they can’t guarantee that those people are actual fascists, in their heart of hearts, and that it would’ve taken too many resources to convert them, or too much time. That’s all normal shit, right, normal death sentence justification, which I usually don’t agree with, maybe greased up a little bit since you can have the apologia of a kind of wartime or desperation, right. You get what I’m saying?
I agree with you also, that there are plenty (I would even say, a majority) of supporters that legitimately just don’t realize how bad he is, and how bad things are in general, lots of them because they’re coked up on denial and lack of imagination, lots of them because they stand to benefit from these systems as they currently operate. They might not be “racist”, but they might still be perpetuating racism, they might not be fascists, but they might still be perpetuating fascism, through their ignorance and incompetence. Those people, right, sure, doesn’t make much sense to kill them.
But then, how do you propose to change their minds? A staunch communist might propose that we change the system, and then the majority will more naturally come to like, normal conclusions, right, and then you can just round up the rest that are sort of very staunch in their misinformed support, and then you can perhaps “re-educate” those people, right.
This is a process most people have problems with, but I dunno, what’s your take, what’s your alternative? If you’re dealing with those people, and you’re still giving them the freedom to attain power, control the economy and other people’s lives, even as misguided as they are, just sort of, for the sake of not having them in jail, right, then I dunno if that’s really going to work long term. It locks you into an untenable position, especially as many of these people will be actively dedicated to your dissolution, even if they’re just fooled, which dooms your movement from the start. You have to remove them from power, and if you want to remove them from power and ownership, while also not expatriating them from your country, an act which is usually viewed as genocide and for which you will constantly hear bitching from gusanos in the miami herald about, then you need to put them in some sort of reeducation camp, basically, and that camp is going to constitute jail.
So I dunno, hit me with your argument against that kind of jailing.
I don’t really think there’s any level of like, very natural reform that you’re going to engage in, or slow convincing over time to get people to give up their own power, that’s going to improve things, or that’s going to improve things at nearly the rate that we need right now considering what’s on the horizon. I might be wrong on that, but my basis for that belief is that people are in the positions of power that they’re in because they are naturally groomed and ensured to be the ones who have the beliefs and attitudes most suited to retain that power. If you have a business size of like, hundreds, and you’re promoting people in your business to positions of power, promoting people to become CEO by the board of directors, then naturally the system is going to start appointing people which reinforce the system. Asskissers who will do anything to get promoted, are usually the ones to get promoted, we know this. This doesn’t even need to be a universal tendency, this just needs to be a tendency more of the time than not, for it to be really problematic, for the majority of people in power to be assholes. The board of directors doesn’t want to start appointing CEOs that turn their companies into co-ops, that take the power out of their hands, there’s a natural incentive structure there. The same is mostly true of political systems which are mostly autocratic.
So, I dunno if there’s really much of an alternative, if we’re taking a sort of, step back look down at that idea of jailing your opposition. Maybe you have one, I dunno.
The whack jobs on the left are a vanishing minority, so if you’re pretending they’re equivalent to the right wing who actually attempted a fucking coup and want to do another one, you’re either disingenuous or an idiot.
I’ve seen far more calls from the left for actual violence since the rise of trump than probably combined the rest of my life. I agree the right wing is currently more violent, but the claim that they are vanishing, rather than rising, doesn’t match up with the reality I’ve experienced. Especially surprising to claim it here on Lemmy where I see it most.
How many right wing people do you hang out with?
Lemmy is not reality.
Good message overall, but man what a terrible choice to depict the left
Only that there are also a lot of commies who would exterminate a whole lot of centrists.
“We are gonna make mankind happy even if we have to exterminate half of it!”
Unfathomably based. If they said it like this half of the far right would join.
well when you say it like that, it makes me think that’s cool as long as I’m part of the half that doesn’t get exterminated
Is happiness the reason why almost everyone living in communist countries in 1900s wanted to change the system or gtfo?
Right-wing in-group: “So long as you be just like us in every way and fall in line, you will be accepted. Sort of.”
Left-wing in-group: “So long as you’re not an asshole, we don’t care what you believe or do.”
Right-wing out-group: Anyone not like them.
Left-wing out-group: Anyone who is an asshole.
The key being what constitutes being an asshole, and what you allow yourself to do to someone once the label can be pasted onto someone. It’s really the same thing seen through different gross stereotypes - they could literally say the same thing.
That’s not to say there aren’t very real differences between parties, but they aren’t extreme sides of a one dimensional line (or vague notions in a two dimensional mapping) which is basically a propaganda tool for the ego.
It’s funny. I have a blog post from Ken Arneson who talks about “The Right to be an Asshole” and here’s how he defines an asshole:
An asshole is a selfish person whose selfishness causes foreseeable indirect collateral damage to the people around them.
He goes on:
Assholes take risks that provide upside to themselves, but transfer the downsides of those risks to other people.
But the true test case for the limits of freedom is the asshole. Philosophically speaking, assholes walk the line between intentions and consequences. Assholes form the boundary between freedom and control.
Assholes don’t intend to do direct harm. They just don’t think about, and/or care about, and/or believe, and/or comprehend, that their actions can or will have negative consequences for other people beyond their direct intentions.
He goes on to recount the tale of COVID Patient 31 from Seoul, South Korea. Shortly after receiving her diagnosis, she decided to seek comfort at church. Hundreds of deaths and thousands of infections were traced back to her through contact tracing. So, now we come to intentions vs. consequences. Patient 31 wasn’t intending to make anyone sick or die, she was merely seeking comfort through faith. Any reasonable non-asshole could have told her and probably did tell her, that attending church while infected would cause others to be infected and possibly die. How should this asshole be judged? If we judge her by her intentions, then she’s as much a victim as anyone. But if we judge her by her consequences, then she’s a mass murderer.
So the question we have to ask as a free society is: What the fuck do we do about assholes?
Assholes have a very clever trick that allows them to keep being assholes.
If you try to stop them from being an asshole, they will declare you to be an asshole who, although perhaps intending to prevent some bad thing from happening, causes harm by denying some very fine people, who have no intention of harming anyone, their freedom. So who’s the real asshole here, anyway?
Why is he downvoted? One is not an asshole if one is just too dumb to get what they are causing. The problem is that we not educate our children good enough so that they not fail to get what makes sense and what not.
But as long as we have stupid religious fanatics in power, we are doomed. Fuck Religion!
Religion has done something very clever, too. Christianity in particular has, through some means, found a way to divorce actions from character, as opposed to viewing one’s actions as a reflection of their character. They see good and evil as things that someone is instead of what someone does.
You ever notice how suburban white Karens clutch their pearls when called racist? Well, consider what I just said about their view of evil. Now, make “racism” == “evil”. By calling one racist, you have effectively called them evil, and they most certainly do not view themselves as having an evil character.
Or how, when doing evil deeds, they don’t see themselves as being evil despite their actions? Or when someone does a good deed, they accuse that person of being evil?
It’s just intriguing how they’ve pulled off this alchemy.
You confused me a little with that text 😅
What the fuck do we do about assholes?
Simple. Dicks fuck assholes. Its necessary, but the problem is they get shit all over the place!
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no, socialism is transferring everything to the people, the current not-socialist capitalist model already transfers all the risk to the people, but keeps the gains to the few
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💎exacta-mundo friendileeno
Hope the left sees that there are assholes turning to nice people if you take away the fear right-wing media puts on them.
Left-wing out-group: Everyone, especially other leftists
I mean, it doesn’t have anything to do with the ideology, but the far left is famously like that.
I don’t usually use this expression, but you might need to touch grass. I pretty regularly hang out with far left people and other than debates over personal philosophy we’re all pretty chill. The internet is not an accurate representation of any actual social dynamics.
Yup. That’s some truth.
All my liberal homies smoke weed and shoot the shit and try to vote for people who don’t want to kill outgroups. So agreed, he needs to touch grass.
The ones I’m thinking of would not appreciate being called “liberal”.
Well, I meant my lefty friends. If you look at my comment history, I’m not much a liberal myself, but I don’t consider tankies on the left. I consider them authoritarian fuckbags that will say anything to get power. Just like authoritarian fuckbags on the right.
I consider them flat Earth theorists that weren’t right-wing enough for the normal conspiracy pipeline. The Stalin stuff is pretty much just decoration.
I’ve seen plenty of anarchist gatekeeping, too, although when you haven’t organised in the first place there’s less to split.
TBH there’s barely a center-left where I live, even, so you’re right that I wouldn’t know. However, the history of real-world Western socialist organisations doesn’t inspire confidence that it’s any different.
to be fair, tankies arn’t left wing, they fully support the most Draconian right wing solutions to everything, but pretend that their führer isn’t evil or something.
Anarchists are in this picture too. Gatekeeping about who’s anti-authoritarian enough is one example.
I mean, they have a point, you literally can’t go “but Lenin created vanguardism” as a reason why the all powerful single party state supposedly controlled by the “will of the people” and get upset when people call you out for being an authoritarian.
Anarchists gate keeping tankies isn’t some moral wrong, it’s just learning from history, because they would rather work with literal Nazis/ ethno-fascists than with an anarchist, the anarchists were the first to be shot by all the fascists, German, Romanian, Italian, or Soviet.
Yeah, but even if you allow that, they’ll gatekeep each other over dietary systems, for voting or not voting, over which economic systems are too market, over who was on the right side of a personal falling out, for believing in rules of any kind and on and on. There never is an end to it.
I don’t know who you’ve been hanging out with, but anarchists don’t care if you’re vegan or not, and generally their issue isn’t with markets, it’s with the system giving all the power to a small group of feudal lords, but I think the issue is that you only know anarchists by shitty online memes, maybe you should go get in contact with your local lawn dealer
Sure. All the anarchists fucking up for the last 150 years don’t count. You folks in this thread swear there’s different, cool ones; they’re just conveniently invisible.
and generally their issue isn’t with markets, it’s with the system giving all the power to a small group of feudal lords
And yet, pretty much none of them like ancaps. Mutualists or whatever other in-between are prime targets for purging from your not-a-political-party.
Left-wing in-group: “So long as you’re not an asshole, we don’t care what you believe or do.”
Since fucking when?? The far left is famous for infighting and purity tests, has been for decades. It might even be the number one thing Leftism is known for.
Pray tell, what are the current purity tests in use by left-leaning politics in America?
“Don’t be a bigoted piece of shit” is not a purity test, just as a point of clarification.
Meme says far left, not left-leaning. Left-leaning is cool. Far left are fucking idiots.
I’d love to hear your answer to his question, you forgot to answer it.
It was the wrong question, dumbass. Left-leaning people don’t use purity tests.
Why are you calling me a dumbass? Are you angry? You forgot to answer his question. There are no wrong questions, maybe some you don’t want to answer. Every group uses some form of purity test.
Calling you a dumbass because you’re a fucking dumbass. No other reason. It’s not a difficult concept, but then again you would have trouble with it.
Not only are you wrong, you’re a total prick about it lmao
Just matching the energy. But also, no I’m not wrong.
I mean, the only groups using purity tests are shit stains like tankies and terfs, they of course are SOOOOOOOOOoooooo… left they routinely work with literal neo-Nazis (hint they arn’t left wing at all)
Such as… ?
I mean if you need to narrow your scope to the “fAr LeFt,” in America to make your point then I can narrow my scope to the “fAr RiGht” and the difference is eco terrorism versus lynch mobs, so…
Theres a lot of nuisance in the definitions of left and right that are lost in reductive and polarizing statements like this. For instance a far left idea is an extreme belief in the philosophy of equity. When brought to its pure conclusion you end up in a communist environment where the state ends of being the dictator of exactly how much resources every individual is allowed to have. The conclusion to radical left and radical right policies is actually exactly the same. Authoritarianism.
There are plenty of ideas and philosophies on the right and left that are absolutely reasonable. Universal Healthcare on the left. Some immigration reforms or trade tariffs on the right.
These types of memes are very reductionist an unhelpful in terms of influencing people who are already woefully uneducated in the world of politics, philosophy, or trade and finance and only serves to try and convince stupid people that one very large and diverse group of people are literally evil while another very large group of diverse people are the good and virtuous.
Communism is when the shared public mechanisms under socialism run so well a government is no longer necessary at all. If it has a dictator or a government it is, by definition, not communism.
If it has a dictator or a government it is, by definition, not communism.
Ignoring the dictator bit, this is an anti-Marxist take, Marx never stated that Communism would have no government. When speaking of the State, Marx specifically speaks of the institutions of a Capitalist Government that etrench the Capitalist class, ie Private Property Rights and the militarized institutions that uphold them (the Capitalist police).
Marx was not an anarchist, he was advocating for central planning, and you cannot have central planning without central planners. Simply saying that the public mechanisms would “run really well” hides the fact that government would remain, planning and administrating.
Even Cybernetics would still need to have human administration, elections, and so forth to represent the will of the people.
You may wish to visit Critique of the Gotha Programme.
I may be misremembering, but the way I recall Engles describing it in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific is that as you dissolve class relations you remove the previous purpose of government, which was to enforce class roles through, for instance, enforcement of private property rights. As the “Administration of People” becomes unnecessary, the government is relegated to “Administration of Things” which moves it away from controlling people, and let’s it “melt away” as it’s remaining functions become less “governmental” and more of just managing logistics of things.
Sort of. You remove the classist aspects of previous society. Socialism itself emerges from Capitalism, and Communism emerges from Socialism. When I say Communism has a government, I very much mean there would still be laws, social workers, central planners, administrators, elections, even police, but not the elements of previous class society like Private Property Rights.
This is why Marx specifically describes this process as “whithering away.” He is not arguing that the government will dissolve itself, this argument has been levied against AES countries falsely. Instead, it is through lack of maintenance that these aspects erode over time, like how the Monarchy in the UK is vestigial, or how there are no longer streetlamp lighters. As technology and society progresses, what once was considered necessary makes itself obsolete and fades.
This is the core of dialectical materialism, ie a tree contains within it elements of its past as a seed and elements of its future as an older and eventualy dead tree, everything is a transformation of its previous self.
Bolsheviks literally exterminated entire social groups because they believed they were impure. Calling people “kulaks” and such.
They also deported (as in half dying in the way) to Siberia whole peoples, like Chechens and Ingushs.
Also some peoples by ethnicity alone were deemed suspicious in certain parts of USSR and forcefully moved from there. That’s how there are very few Greeks in Crimea.
And you have those hammer and sickle on the “far left” pic.
Its almost as if the USSR was just fascism with red trim.
I agree, but the author used hammer&sickle as the illustration of “far left”.
Its the symbol of communism, as opposed to the USSR alone.
It originated in the Soviet Union, it’s associated with Communism because of the Soviet Union. It’s only a symbol of Communism within the context of the USSR, if you believe the model of the USSR to be fascist then you believe the Hammer and Sickle to be symbolic of fascism.
Alternatively, you can dissapprove of the model of the USSR while recognizing it as Socialist and not fascist.
It originated under tsarist Russia. So, by your own “logic”, its a symbol of pre-industrial surfism.
Sure, I could recognise it as that but then we’d both be wrong. You see, much like the peoples democratic republic of Korea, simply declaring your country to be something doesn’t make it true. Its actually a bit more complicated than that.
It originated under tsarist Russia. So, by your own “logic”, its a symbol of pre-industrial surfism.
“Surfism?” Sounds rad 🏄
In all seriousness, the Tsarist Regime was overthrown in 1917, while the Hammer and Sickle was first proposed in 1918, and adopted officially by the Bolsheviks and the USSR as it formed out of the Russian Civil War. It has since become a symbol of Marxism through association with the USSR, not despite it. The H&S was symbiolized for the USSR, not necessarily Marxism itself.
Sure, I could recognise it as that but then we’d both be wrong. You see, much like the peoples democratic republic of Korea, simply declaring your country to be something doesn’t make it true. Its actually a bit more complicated than that.
The DPRK did not invent the concept of Democracy, nor have groups since the DPRK adopted their symbolism as a means to associate themselves with Democracy. This is a flawed comparison foundationally, because the various Communist groups that have brandished the Hammer and Sickle are at minimum supporting Marxism-Leninism, the state ideology of the USSR, even if these groups support or denounce Stalinism (ie, Trotskyist orgs).
If you can find a significant number of groups brandishing the Hammer and Sickle but denouncing the USSR in totality, then please, be my guest.
*Serfism
Cool story, still a poor argument.
The DPRK did not invent the concept of >Democracy,
Whats that got to do with anything? Are you attempting to claim the USSR invented socialism? I sure hope not.
or have groups since the DPRK adopted their symbolism as a means to associate themselves with Democracy. This is a flawed comparison foundationally, because the various Communist groups that have brandished the Hammer and Sickle are at minimum supporting Marxism-Leninism, the state ideology of the USSR, even if these groups support or denounce Stalinism (ie, Trotskyist orgs).
Yeah, you’ve got yourself mixed up with the symbolism here. I understand why you don’t want to venture away from it but we are going to have too.
Its a perfectly good comparison for showing why simply declaring a country to be something is, at best, problematic. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make but I’m sure you made it well enough for whatever argument it would actually fit in.
Let’s make it real simple, is the peoples democratic republic of Korea a democracy?
Well, others have answered you that it’s the symbol of “worker and peasant Red Army”, as hammer and sickle symbolize. And a five ended star was, I think, a military symbol of limited popularity in Russia before Communism, while Red Army simply made the color constant. The star was also initially upside down, as a way to defy Christianity, this is not a joke. But later they, apparently, decided that it being upside down is juvenile.
Almost like Fascism was a branch of Italian Socialism.
Only fascists pretend that fascists were socialists.
Its almost as if mussolini got kicked out of the Italian socliast league specifically for not remotely socialist.
Movements don’t rise from nothing. His first supporters were card carrying members of the Italian Socialist Party. “Kicked out” of a party you replace is a weird way to say it.
His first supporters were nothing of the sort and the fascists fought the socialists.
If fighting socialists disqualifies you as a socialist, then there would be no socialists.
I agree. However, fascsists aren’t socialists. If it isn’t socialism for everyone it isn’t socialism at all.
The national socialists had to change their name from what it was previously. Hitler wanted to use “socialist” as a buzzword to trick idiots.
because ironically the author of the meme made the best of fucks up made an unironic meme, Tankies are just Nazis wearing red.
Yes, and they destroyed most of the Baltic intelligentsia via exile to Siberia.
Forcefully relocated Ukrainians, Germans and Poles to purify post war borders which helped to turn Lithuania, Poland and Ukraine into nation states.
Then they accused Lithuanians, Ukrainians and the Polish of nationalism during 1980s independence movements, the same nationalism they actively helped create since 1945.
No need to single out Baltics really. The same happened everywhere.
Then they accused Lithuanians, Ukrainians and the Polish of nationalism during 1980s independence movements, the same nationalism they actively helped create since 1945.
Let’s please remember that inside USSR the first such movement to gain traction was the one of NK’s unification with Armenian SSR. And also the first one to be met with force. Independent Azerbaijan basically took the matter where USSR’s central government left it.
Dunno why I’m trying to make a case of NK’s independence being as solid as that of Baltic countries or something. It’s not about laws, but about strength anyway. All the “international institutions” have made it clear that any principle is sold cheap.
the same nationalism they actively helped create since 1945.
Actually since middle 30-s Soviet ideology started turning in that direction. During WWII this, of course, accelerated with war propaganda.
As a centrist I can say with certainty that both sides are being misrepresented here.
Wrong!
Source: We’re on Lenny
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Centrists: My 3-year old child can tell that both of these characterizations are bullshit. Why cannot you?
because we tend to be smarter than a 3-year old, i mean, the republicans have openly said that they will abolish democracy in America, but “centrists” seem to think it’s a joke
This is just an anecdote of course, but I figure myself a centrist and don’t think it was a joke.
Weird, republicans say the same about democrats
ya, but the difference is that democrats aren’t unveiling “the roadmap to abolish democracy” as a policy guide, and well, actions speak louder than words (unless you are a republican, then you will gladly side with Epstine-McHittler)
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Yes, they certainly made sure everybody’s needs were met during the Holodomor.
That was under Stalin’s rule which was a fascist regime like any other ‘communist’ regime that gained power in the last century.
I get what you are saying, but wasn’t Stalin “just” a dictator (with an iron fist, killing millions) but not faschist?
If one applies a strict definition of fascism, probably yes as stalinism is a kind of it’s own.
Yes, but far left can go that far. Note there are no far left politicians in serious play in American politics. Radical far left means you are ready to go all in on on bad stuff because you think it’s the only means to the correct end.
The far right is currently more dangerous in American politics because they are actually in serious play, but let’s not assume tossing in some far left would make things better.
Far-left would be something like anarcho-communism. Fascism is, in fact, far-right.
I suppose this is a way the ‘left<->right’ spectrum to align everything breaks down.
Some would graph ‘authoritarianism’ on the right and more liberty on the ‘left’.
Except some ‘leftists’ would love to use authoritarian strategies against malicious capitalism and people responsible for environmental misbehavior, which are also seen as “leftist” ideals.
As evidenced in the scenario today, where the far right is in rabid support of a convicted felon and the left is rallying behind someone seen as a pretty aggressive prosecutor. Generally opposite of the traditional view of what ‘right’ and ‘left’ would tend to favor.
Authoritarianism tends to assert itself when people feel like they can use it to advance their own stance and minimize opposition, regardless of side. We just don’t have people that far left in US politics currently.
fascism is right wing
Anyone still claiming to be an undecided voter in 2024 is quite frankly full of shit
It has always been a myth. Humans are inherently political.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-moderate-middle-is-a-myth/
Anyone claiming that the Democrats goals are to ensure everyone’s needs are met is full of shit.
The meme says “leftists” not democrats. Democrats are rarely leftists, and usually centrists/right wing.
I was not responding to the meme.
ok, so you’re undecided between trump/republicans and harris/democrats?
why?
Are Democrats committed to ensuring everyone’s needs are met?
If not, discussion here is irrelevant.
If you’re not responding to the meme, then why is your discussion on whether “everyone’s needs are met”? OP you responded to was only talking about undecided voters.
How are undecided voters going to make a decision to support the party where “everyone’s needs are met” if there is no option to do so.
Because he’s a fucking Russian plant and the only memes he’s paid to talk about are “Democrats bad”.
the discussion has moved on to see if you’re actually on the left, or are trying to discourage people on the left from voting, or are just a straight up accelerationist/fascist/glowie
The discussion seems to be based on the false assumption that Democrats are left wing and they want to ensure that everyone’s needs are met.
At this point Dems are moderate right wings and the Republicans are far right. We don’t really have a “far left” party.
So why does the above post refer to undecided voters?
Because majority of left people vote dem and right vote for rep and centrist are undecided. This doesn’t mean left = dem, it just means dems are the best option right now for the left.
OK, so the dems are committed to ensuring everyone’s needs are met. Yes?
No one in this comment chain said that, they said they were the best option.
No one in this comment chain said that.
It’s in the picture right at the start.
Why mention the Democrats if they aren’t relevant to the meme being discussed?
I wish
This is literally the bravest and most important thing I’ve seen all week. Bravo OP, you’ve convinced me
No, its the most cowardly and destructive thing posted here in a year. OP is a tankie who wants to Stalinized you to Death with illegal woke national socialists. Don’t trust him. Its a trick to make you cucked, soy, and chinese.
Ummm, I know it’s gotten a lot of popularity lately, but the Fallout Series, and especially Liberty Prime, is not real
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I think people who’ve enjoyed years under communist governments might disagree a little about the comparison here.
“Communist governments” have never been truly communist. Well the big ones that we know at least, I guess smaller folks like indigenous people or other ancient form of living were why more communist.
All the “communist governments” that one thinks about under that term were/are just non fair dictatorships that claim to be fair
Communism isn’t the goal. That’s what far right thinks the far left wants. The far left wants more Universal Basic Income where everyone’s needs are met. People are still allowed to go make money. Just there no homeless, which in turn should mean there’s no ultra ultra wealthy.
But communism where absolutely everybody gets the same thing hasn’t been argued for in a while (at least I haven’t seen it past arguing with Republicans it’s a bad idea).
Lol. Had to depict the left with hammer and sickle-- a communist symbol. And it isn’t like the communists are constitent on LGBT rights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_and_LGBT_rights?wprov=sfla1
It’s pretty much the default Chad Leftist Wojak drawing. It’s been around for years.
Careful! last time I mentioned that I got called Sinophobic! =P
It’s more often the far left I see rejecting the centrist candidates and thereby ironically helping the right wing because they refuse to comprehend the difference between right wing “exterminate everyone” and centrist “how about maybe don’t do that though”.
This is a misframing of the general Leftist argument.
The Far Left, ie Anarchists, Marxists, etc, believe the Capitalist Status Quo to be the mechanism that brings about fascism. Ie, decay of Capitalism (which is a necessary component of Capitalism itself) results in the bourgeoisie and petite bourgeoisie to ally themselves against the proletariat, in an attempt to violently “turn the clock back.”
Historically, centrists have sided with the fascists against the leftists, which is why over time leftists have been less willing to compromise, as said compromise has resulted in backstabbing. Additionally, Centrism itself preserves the mechanisms that result in fascism, centrism just kicks the can down the road.
When put into context, the far-left is willing to do what it takes to stop fascism.
Nazis literally rose to power because the centrists in Germany allied with them, thinking that the far right wouldn’t be that bad.
Yep, and for many of the centrists, they stood to profit a ton from collaboration with the Nazis. Numerous companies worldwide profited off of colaboration with the Nazi regime.
The idea that fascism is just a “dangerous idea to be stopped in debate halls” ignores the economic reasoning for why it appears in the first place, which is why liberals always side with fascists.
And it happens again, like, everywhere 😔
except when they instead end up actually not doing jack fucking shit about it other than attacking the leftmost available political option for not being left enough but curiously never getting around to confronting the ACTUAL FASCISTS THEMSELVES.
Which is so astonishingly unhelpful that sometimes it seems like they’re some kind of psyop or plant BY the fascists.
Maybe instead of whinging about supporting the lesser of two evils we should be focusing on PUNISHING THE GREATER OF TWO EVILS UNTIL IT FUCKING DIES so that the lesser evil no longer has cover to hide behind???
That hasn’t happened, historically, unless you’re dismissing all of the organizing and campaigning done by Leftists as “jack fucking shit.”
Liberalism leads to fascism, decay in liberal Capitalist society allows fascism to take root and spread like a mold. You cannot “beat fascism until it dies” without also beating liberalism. Liberalism will always remain the lesser evil until either fascism takes root, or socialism does. Eventually, liberalism will transform into fascism unless leftists win.
it happened in 2016 when trump won due to dipshit idealists like me who allowed hillary’s shitty behavior and dogshit strategy to disenfranchise us because we were too weak willed and petty to see the big picture.
LEARNED FROM THAT FUCKING MISTAKE, I TELL YOU WHAT.It happened in 2000 when Gore didn’t get a clear enough edge to choke out W because people fucked their votes away on the “better” option of Nader. Those 97,488 votes would’ve utterly annihilated W’s meager 537 vote lead, if only people would have gotten their shit together and realized what was at stake.
it happened in 1968 when George Wallace siphoned NINE MILLION VOTES away from Hubert Humphrey and handed our country off to FUCKING. RICHARD. NIXON. THE crook himself owes his opportunity to FUCK america raw to people failing to understand the FUNDAMENTAL MECHANICS of First Past The Post
Most notorious of all, to me, though, was in 1912 when the republican party (who were at the time the LESS fascistic and bigoted party) fucked Teddy Roosevelt out of the nomination. His founding of the tragically shortlived Progressive Party (whose policies would largely still have been a massive leap forward for quality of life among all first world nations even TODAY) split the vote and stuck us with Woodrow. Fucking. Wilson. The trump of his day. The bloviating self-entitled racist piece of shit who resurrected the ku klux klan with a screening of “Birth of a Nation” in the gods damned whitehouse, and set back civil rights by three generations by firing all persons of color from all federal administrative offices.
You could not possibly be more wrong about “that hasn’t happened historically”.
Get. Your. SHIT. TOGETHER.
and UNDERSTAND that the bluedog scum centrists will NEVER be vulnerable to the consequences of their FUCKERY
UNTIL
and
UNLESS
we exterminate their favorite token excuse, the modern post-southern-strategy Republican Party.America pulled it off before when the Federalist party got curb stomped into oblivion with several years of consistent loss. We need to do that again. Because the last thing I want to see is your ‘noble’, ‘principled’, ‘high minded’ CORPSE being shoveled into a mass grave with the rest of us at GOP-operated deathcamps.
it happened in 2016 when trump won due to dipshit idealists like me who allowed hillary’s shitty behavior and dogshit strategy to disenfranchise us because we were too weak willed and petty to see the big picture.
LEARNED FROM THAT FUCKING MISTAKE, I TELL YOU WHAT.Trump didn’t win because people sat out from Hillary, Trump won because he appealed to rising fascist ideals in the conditions of decaying Capitalism. Putting the blame on a tiny percentage of the electorate and not the system itself that gave rise to Trump and fascism itself is misplaced.
It happened in 2000 when Gore didn’t get a clear enough edge to choke out W because people fucked their votes away on the “better” option of Nader. Those 97,488 votes would’ve utterly annihilated W’s meager 537 vote lead, if only people would have gotten their shit together and realized what was at stake.
See previous point.
and UNDERSTAND that the bluedog scum centrists will NEVER be vulnerable to the consequences of their FUCKERY
UNTIL
and
UNLESS
we exterminate their favorite token excuse, the modern post-southern-strategy Republican Party.You can’t, without eliminating Capitalism. The reason the Republican Party exists at all is because the Material Conditions of declining Capitalism support it. Beat Capitalism and the fascists go away with it.
America pulled it off before when the Federalist party got curb stomped into oblivion with several years of consistent loss. We need to do that again. Because the last thing I want to see is your ‘noble’, ‘principled’, ‘high minded’ CORPSE being shoveled into a mass grave with the rest of us at GOP-operated deathcamps.
And yet we have another fascist party now.
Centrists are the real communists. They just want everyone to come together and hug it out.
Don’t you ever fucking joke around in my meme community, you monster
No, wait, he’s got a point…
