cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/25215421

cross-posted from: https://hexbear.net/post/3132208

it’s important to understand how shame and guilt actually work before you try to use it for good.

Not that anybody asked, but I think it’s important to understand how shame and guilt actually work before you try to use it for good.

It’s a necessary emotion. There are reasons we have it. It makes everything so. much. worse. when you use it wrong.

Shame and guilt are DE-motivators. They are meant to stop behavior, not promote it. You cannot, ever, in any meaningful way, guilt someone into doing good. You can only shame them into not doing bad.

Let’s say you’re a parent and your kid is having issues.

Swearing in class? Shame could work. You want them to stop it. Keep it in proportion, and it might help. (KEEP IT IN PROPORTION!!!)

Not doing their homework? NO! STOP! NO NOT DO THAT! EVER! EVER! EVER! You want them to start to do their homework. Shaming them will have to opposite effect! You have demotivated them! They will double down on NOT doing it. Not because they are being oppositional, but because that’s what shame does!

You can’t guilt people into building better habits, being more successful, or getting more involved. That requires encouragement. You need to motivate for that stuff!

If you want it in a simple phrase:

You can shame someone out of being a bad person, but you can’t shame them into being a good person.

It was nice to see this put so clearly. This election cycle has left me exhausted and demotivated, and this hits it square on the head.

stolen from https://grungekitty-77.tumblr.com/post/754482938951892992/fun-fact-that-was-literally-what-inspired-me-to

  • Anamnesis@lemmy.worldEnglish
    13·
    3 months ago

    This doesn’t match my experience. I’ve known a ton of academics and accomplished people who said their motivations were entirely trying to avoid the crushing guilt of mediocrity.

    It’s not a good way to live (they were all deeply unhappy people). But guilt and shame do motivate lots of people.

    • Optional@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
      71·
      3 months ago

      I think you’re actually in agreement with it.

      Guilt and shame as motivations will make one deeply unhappy. In other words, it’s not “motivation” in the sense of being inspired.

  • solsangraal@lemmy.zipEnglish
    121·
    3 months ago

    i agree with the main point, but it’s leaving out the fact that some people just don’t feel shame OR guilt, and these are usually the people who attain to positions of power/authority by being ruthless and cutthroat

    • Optional@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
      71·
      3 months ago

      Sure, but I think we can safely carve out an “except for…” and apply the rest to everyone remaining.

      • Eheran@lemmy.worldEnglish
        4·
        3 months ago

        You can do that with everything. Which is why it does not make sense to mention every niche detail all the time.

    • kofe@lemmy.worldEnglish
      4·
      3 months ago

      That can often be associated with people that were heavily neglected in childhood, or sometimes for people heavily shamed in the same formative years. It becomes a defensive strategy to weaponize it against others. Can be treated with therapy but takes active participation and wanting to do so for years

      Very, very rarely there are just psychopaths with no empathy, but even they can learn to adjust their behavior by recognizing they don’t want to be treated that way themselves without consent. Some psychologists consider it less as lacking empathy, more so just being impaired to varying degrees. If that’s beaten out of you in childhood and becomes engrained, it can be very difficult but not impossible

      Not to say anyone should put up with it. That’s what’s therapists are for, or jail if they’re so antisocial they’re breaking laws and actively causing harm

  • RestrictedAccount@lemmy.worldEnglish
    9·
    3 months ago

    I am reusing an old comment of mine:

    There is a book called “Tiny Habits” by BJ Fogg. He invented most of the techniques companies like Meta use to manipulate you and me.

    In the book, he explains how to use the same techniques to control your own behavior.

    I personally am in much better physical and mental state since I read it.

    You cannot beat yourself up until you improve. It does not work. It is a myth.

  • nforminvasion@lemmy.worldEnglish
    2·
    3 months ago

    This is a very guilt-innocence biased approach which is fine but should be noted. Also shame and guilt are two different things and should be stated as such. To think that they are the same is a very narrow approach.

    This also flies in the face of most shame-honor societies. There’s a lot to like here and I agree that you can never shame someone into being good but the narrative is highly Western centric in its approach

  • CaptainKickass@lemmy.worldEnglish
    124·
    3 months ago

    So you can’t shame someone into being a good person

    So the starting point is a bad person 🤷

    I will shame bad people and not feel bad about it one bit

    Miss me with the new age parenting, this is why teachers are quitting at an unprecedented rate