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cross-posted from: https://hexbear.net/post/3752956
Fascism is here.
https://www.axios.com/2024/10/22/trump-mass-deportation-immigrant-camps
cross-posted from: https://hexbear.net/post/3752956
Fascism is here.
https://www.axios.com/2024/10/22/trump-mass-deportation-immigrant-camps
No wonder Trump killed the bipartisan immigration reform bill. I didn’t realize the anti-immigrant sentiment had gotten to this level in so much of the population. It’s frankly horrifying.
You would be surprised how many legal immigrants hate other immigrants. They’ve been targeted pretty heavily by the propaganda that illegals are getting all kinds of free money and etc
I mean, I get it in that case. Legally immigrating is a massive pain in the ass, and costs several thousand dollars.
Immigration was hard for me, so it should be hard for others too.
Same sentiment as being against student loan forgiveness because you already paid yours off.
Not really. For immigration, someone might think that only the best of the best should be allowed to immigrate. They think that includes them, but doesn’t include a lot of the people who do it illegally. And, to a certain extent, they’re probably right. It’s pretty hard to immigrate legally to the US as a menial labourer, but that’s what a lot of illegal immigrants do. They work in restaurants, slaughterhouses, on farms, etc. doing extremely hard work, but work that doesn’t require any education. Meanwhile a lot of legal immigration slots are only available to people with “extraordinary ability”.
The kinds of jobs that illegal immigrants do are the ones that US citizens would only do if they were really desperate. Meanwhile, the kinds of jobs that legal immigrants do are often the ones that very few US citizens can do, so that the companies need to hire from outside the country to fill the position.
Being against student loan forgiveness is also a pretty reasonable position, whether or not you paid yours off, or you never went to university.
Yes, there are people with well argumented reasons against loosening immigration laws or giving more rights to illegal immigrants. But it is a fact that there is a large number or immigrants who oppose them simply for the reason that others shouldn’t get what they got without going through the same hard work. I’ve seen very angry groups of immigrants opposing drivers licenses for illegal immigrants for just that reason. It wasn’t about best of the best or extraordinary ability.
Same for student loan forgiveness. There are a lot of people who oppose it just because “it isn’t fair” that they had to pay theirs and others wouldn’t.
I think that logic is flawed and petty.
I personally have not much stake in the matter. I’m a legal immigrant, doing one of those jobs that required proof that I’m highly qualified. And I got to be highly qualified for free because I didn’t study in the US.
Or just get married to a citizen
That also costs thousands of dollars not counting the wedding costs
I’d love to know more about how that poll was conducted. 22% of democrats? 47% of independents? I’m skeptical that those are really reflective of how prevalent those attitudes are.
Do y’all talk to people day-to-day?
I hear a lot of anti immigrant rhetoric from my immigrant aunts and my more “trashy” or low-class friends (all kids of immigrants)
I’ve been saying this for more than a decade now, before bots became such a huge thing (I think), if YouTube comments are any reflection of the average person/American, we’re so beyond fucked. I absolutely do not practice cynicism
Yep. I think there’s a huge amount of left leaning online people in denial.
They keep thinking that they just need to tell people about all these issues and then obviously those people will see it as wrong. Nope, a huge number of their fellow citizens are absolutely aware of this shit and actively approve of it.
Bringing ‘awareness’ is pointless if the people actually approve of this horrible stuff.
To be clear, I don’t think most of these folks fully understand the consequences of supporting fascist politicians. My imm. aunt startled me a bit yesterday when said something like democracy means gay people everywhere. I said that’s not true and “reminded” her democracy is a system of gov where citizens can vote, one where women weren’t previously able to participate in, nor black citizens.
Still, where does that leave us? No fuckin joke, we basically need to stop trying to use facts to reach certain folks. My understanding is that means we need to use emotions/emotional intelligence. How do we do that? Not sure. Many of us had to numb the fuck out to survive what we call American culture, so we’re really just barely learning
How do we now make Americans that kinda hate our guts, because of tons of propaganda, that we care about them and want to work with them to improve our nation? Most libs kinda do come off like they hate them, tbf
Idk if that made sense. Kinda stuck rn
Agreed on the emotional intelligence approach. I’m tired of democrats thinking logic and facts will just sway everyone and then being all high and mighty when that doesn’t work on some people.
The whole thing with Trump being weird was an excellent attempt at actually messaging in a way that resonates with people. There’s a reason ads for stuff like cars and medicine focus more on happy experiences and not on what the product actually is.
We need to be building a brand identity, shaping how people feel about us and focusing less on the raw facts and logic. It doesn’t work on seemingly most Americans, continuing to use it despite the lack of results really makes me question whether we really are controlled opposition.
Survey methodology is described in detail here - https://www.prri.org/research/challenges-to-democracy-the-2024-election-in-focus-findings-from-the-2024-american-values-survey/#page-section-12 (archived at https://ghostarchive.org/archive/FtPGJ)
Jesus Christ. The methodology actually sounds good. This is… So very, very troubling for our nation.
We’ve been a deeply racist and violent country for longer than we’ve been a country. Built on genocide and slavery. We didn’t properly address our failures when we had the chance (Civil War should have ended with a new constitution and drastically different political structure to keep militant bigots from gaining power) and now we have this.
Almost 27% identify as independent?
Ive never seen any voting poll that even comes close to that. Majority in the survey are white, 50+, evangelical/mainline christian midwestern/southerners. That demographic doesn’t help skew to 27% independent to me. The study posted source and methodology though so I don’t know what to say.
Anecdotal, but my father, a white 50+ Christian Midwestern man, has made it very clear he’s voting for Trump a third time. He’s Republican in every way except on paper, because he’s registered independent and identifies as such. So there’s that
Edit, Google turns up this as the first result. In fact, every poll and article I found at a cursory gland supported that. Where are you getting your information that most voters aren’t independent?
Yeah, OP is forgetting about all those capital-C Conservatives that won’t register Republican because the Republicans are too moderate and those that left the party specifically so they can disavow this type of rhetoric but still vote straight ®.
There are a ton of independents that are “inverse RINOs” meaning they are Republicans in everything but name.
The results in any election? 27% claim independent, yet any major election is vastly R or D.
My thing is, claiming your I but not voting that way is odd. I think we can say most libertarians that would be part of this independent block end up voting R.
Claiming independent doesn’t mean you won’t vote Democratic or Republican. There’s no “I” party
And even if there were, First Past The Post means a vote for anybody but D or R means you’re taking a vote away from your preferred D or R candidate. A smart “I” voter would only vote for an “I” party (if one existed) in cases where the more preferred D or R candidate was already basically guaranteed to win, so their third-party vote wouldn’t affect the D or R result.
Libertarians.
Well, based on your and other responses I guess I’ve been giving my fellow Americans too much credit…
Oh no, that’s pretty accurate. We lost the information war on immigration pretty horribly. The project to demonize the poor was set back by the pandemic, except for the homeless. So now they’re going after the homeless first and they’ll be back around for welfare recipients too.
It is not an exaggeration to say we’re cannibalizing our marginalized populations for political capital.
Oops! You missed the disclaimer: *of all participants polled, including only individuals who opted in to the poll, on this specific website or streetside polling campus, during these specific hours in the day.
Edit: Apologies if any of this was misleading. I only meant to point out that polls often have hidden implicit biases due to the nature of their process.
Careful spreading misinformation. This commenter linked the methodology. This is more serious than you’d think
I’m a third-generation immigrant in the UK who grew up in a working class environment. Anti-immigrant rhetoric is common.
He killed the bill because without it he would lose his single biggest campaign issue.
But it’s pretty ridiculous all around when your only options are:
A) Put illegal aliens in concentration camps and prisons
B) Don’t enforce immigration laws at all and disband ICE.
In a sane world you would enforce immigration laws but do so in a way that doesn’t violate human rights and which considers asylum claims as required under US law and international conventions.
“B” has never even been considered. That’s a bogeyman that the Republicans are trying to invent.
The US is constantly enforcing immigration laws. That’s not going to change. The issue is that laws that used to work, like asylum, no longer do.
Nobody in this race wants to get rid of ICE though.
The actual options are,
A) Put undocumented people and Asylees into camps or;
B) Turn all deportations into 48 hour “expedited removals” and remove any claim to asylum because it’s been turned into a catch 22.
(You must apply from the country you’re currently in that’s not the US. You are not eligible because you felt safe enough to stay in that country during the application process)
There is no option to have an amnesty or get rid of ICE.
Is there any chance of redefining terms of asylum? Like to remove drug cartel violence
We already ignore cartel violence. Conservatives have tried multiple times to declare Mexico a safe country.
I had recently gotten a campaign spam mail from a conservative candidate that put “people over politics” yet one of their running issues was “supporting vets over illegal immigrants”.
I think the causation is backwards here, a lot of low engagement voters just assume that the best policies are somewhere to the left of whatever the GOP wants and to right of whatever the Dems are pushing for, but they keep thinking that even as the Dems move to the right.
Dems were thinking if independents saw that they’d respect the Dems willingness to compromise or whatever, but Indies saw that and just decided “Oh, I guess immigration really is a problem like the Republicans were saying all along, even the Democratic party thinks we need a border wall now.”
e; an attempt at better phrasing
Immigrants could commit <10% of the crime of non-immigrants, and contribute >90% more in taxes. It still wouldn’t stop them being an outgroup. No fact of immigrants being good for the country they go to can overcome “but they don’t belong here”, because prejudice is not logical.
Oh yeah. It’s why Biden’s administration has been the worst yet for immigrants with the sole exception of Trump’s. The only actual rollback they did was family separation and long term detention without cause. They fucked Asylees over even harder, and arguably unconstitutionally. They kept Remain in Mexico, just with performative attempts to strike it. They did it the exact same way Trump did his muslim ban, knowing the courts wouldn’t allow it.
It turns out a decade of demonization on Fox News has an effect.
Yeah. It’s pretty easy to get lost in an echo chamber like lemmy. A lot of folks don’t like immigration.