If you asked me like 4-8 years ago, I felt kind of neutral about things. Now I don’t feel an ounce bit patriotic or proud enough to even state that I’m an American.
Now, when I see an American flag around, I see it as a symbol of fascism, anti-intelluctialism, neo-nazism, and late-stage capitalism amongst other things. If there’s an American flag flying on a car, I can totally see that person possessing at least one of those qualities.
I suppose it’s good to be self aware and not blindly feel patriotic and ignoring that your country needs improvement.
I don’t know what I’m expecting in the comments here but just thought I would get this off my chest.
Tbh I think flag hate or angst is about as useful/less as flag worship. If you need something to be preoccupied with, why not make it a problem you can put that energy into doing something about where you live - like homeless people or food aid.
I might be reacting this way because I’ve been getting recent emails from my college about changing the school mascot, which is a “pioneer”. When I was there I don’t remember even being aware that there was a mascot. But apparently they think “pioneer” might be too closely associated with colonialism and they’ve decided this is an important issue. My attitude is create a Native American scholarship (or anything that actually does something) - don’t obsess on imagery.
I’m with you. I’m on vacation in a foreign country. There was a performance and part of it was asking the crowd where they were from. I felt no enthusiasm when the performer asked the crowd to cheer if they were from the USA. It felt shameful.
In my opinion, true patriotism requires being critical of your nation. A patriot doesn’t blindly let their nation go to hell. The Republicans that have take the word “patriot” are not patriots, in my opinion. They’ve ruined the word. A patriot wants to find the issues with their nation and improve them, not yell about being the best and to ignore everything wrong.
Basically, yes. I feel the same as you about the flag, but because it’s been used as a symbol of blind faith, not patriotism. I feel patriotic pride in being critical, not in saying a pledge or anything like that.
I dont think these meets my standards for ask lemmy. Just throwing that out there.
I hate even dressing up on July 4th for fear of looking like a capitol raiding moron. It didn’t use to be like this, and frankly, it’s depressing as fuck. I used to be very proud of my nation, and the progress we’d made in my short lifespan. We legalized gay marriage, elected a black president, tried to get healthcare for all (didn’t work and we all know why), but I genuinely felt optimistic about our nation and the future. 4 years of Trump did a number on my sense of patriotism, and were only 1 months in to Trump 2.0 and he’s dealt a knockout blow to it. I genuinely cringe seeing any amount of national pride now.
Back in the day when my grandfather had a shack in Canada for the summers he would wear a Canada flag hat from time to time. People complimented him on it. This was in the 80s when pride in your country wasn’t associated with “nationalism” and sort of racial pride. Now-a-days even a Canadian flag holds weirdo connotations not even getting into the American flag…
If you think every time you see the US flag the person with it is a fascist get off the internet for a while. Most people are not nazis.
“Draped in a flag and holding a cross” came true. Sorry.
The American flag has become more a symbol of nationalism to me than a symbol of patriotism. It represents everything I hate about my country, and none of the things I love.
No
No
In elementary school, I was all about patriotism. The flag was cool. we (country) were the bad-ass owners of our own fate and we’re cool. We are the melting pot, by the people for the people.
Up through Desert Shield, I was still like yay, America.
W lost his luster, I got old enough to feel the embarrassment of broccoli and NUCULER. I wasn’t rah rah anymore, but those that are, live and let live right?
Dixie flag wavers were racists, that was easy, but the 1776 flag, will maybe they’re historians.
I was mostly over our the right’s shit by Clinton. But then Clinton had some of his own disturbing shit.
When Trump hit the first time, I saw, 30-40% of the population throwing flags up and starting fascist fights. Complete and Immediate disillusion.
At his point, someone flying the US flag is a BIG red flag. The Dixie flag is stupid racists, The 1776 flag is libertarians who fall into camps between uninformed and uninformed racists pop it up there with the don’t tread on me bullshit.
At this point, if you’re not retired military from a better time, there’s very little you can do to show me you can fly an American flag and not be a horrible person.
Another valid reason to fly one is self defense. If you are bold enough to exist on rural american roads while riding a bicycle, having an american flag visibly attached to your bike can do a lot to disarm the types of people who would otherwise run you off the road.
For me it’s been longer than that. I am a queer Canadian and anytime I have travelled the US or stayed with friends and seen any group carrying or wearing American flags that hasn’t given me the “ick” so much as rung alarm bells that those people are not safe.
Thing is, it’s the same thing with the Canadian flag. Any group flying too many Canadian flags outside of Canada Day is likely to be Conservative and anti-queer. Anti-Trans protesters or anti-vaxxers on highway overpasses? Canadian flag. Lifted truck soaring down the highway with a “Fuck Trudeau” bumper sticker - Canada flag. Hoard of protesters demanding book bans, group of people protesting Pride with a “you are gunna burn pedos” sign, antiDEI crusader mob - Canadian flag. It doesn’t take long before one starts to draw certain conclusions about a person’s character when they wave it around. For those of us trans folk who can it’s a sign to hide. A literal red flag.
Amoungst the left up here the flag is a complicated symbol. Many of us on the West Coast see it as a symbol of colonial practice and an insensitive declaration of an occupying nation on stolen territory for people who are still here and whose original sovereignty is still not properly acknowledged. It’s not a symbol of pride and if personally used as such it’s a sign of insensitivity and work to be done. At the same time I would not say that I am not proud of my Country for how far we’ve come. We are a nation in therapy who has the opportunity to put the work in to getting over some really bad murderous and selfish flaws and try new things to make things right. When I had an American friend up here it took a bit for him to understand how seriously the effort is to recon with our past and he treated us like a utopia of leftist sentiment but it is like therapy, yeah we might be putting the work in - but we can see how much further we need to go and praise doesn’t hit us as “job well done” it’s a reminder of how shitty it still is. But if anyone ever thinks that this complicated and nuanced relationship to country would stop us from rallying together to fight to preserve our rights to keep working towards that better future they would be dead wrong.
So I understand pretty well where you’re coming from but for a lot of us this isn’t a particularly new thing. It just is affecting more and more people as they wake up to realizing how these symbols are used.
It really only feels appropriate to see it upside down these days.
I agree that our history has always been fucked up. But there are degrees of fucked up-ness and we’re officially leaving the measurement scale.
It’s fucking over.
I am a US citizen but have been living abroad for the last 4.5 years. I can get by with Norwegian language but didn’t really feel hyper compelled to speak it all the time as English is spoken widely and well here. But especially since the inauguration it’s like, I don’t want strangers to realise that not only am I a foreigner, I’m an American. I try to be a good ambassador through my actions and words, but there’s only so much I can do to distance myself from broad brush strokes of “Americans” anymore and honestly is embarrassing. Also I feel deeply sad that I feel like I can never go home. That place just isn’t real anymore.
The greatest lie the Right ever told that the Left bought hook line and sinker was that they were the ones who represented America.
The thing is, while the US has it’s horrible history and present, the people who fought for the ideals we’re supposed to have are also just as much American as any conservative asshole. MLK Jr was American. Frederick Douglass was American. John Brown was American. Mister Rogers was American. Abolitionists. Suffragists. Union fighters. People fighting for fixing the problems, righting the wrongs, holding our country accountable for it’s own ideals, are just as much a part of that flag.
The assholes laid claim to that flag and the people who are aware of the problems, who have legitimate concerns with the bullshit this country has done and continues to do, accidentally let them.
I agree with this with every piece of my heart. I’d like more than anything for American non-maga’s to take back the American flag (and the gadsden for that matter). Let them have their maga and thin blue line, but ceding the American flag to them is essentially admitting that you don’t want to be a part of this country, which only makes maga’s feel more comfortable about labeling you as an “other”. I know, I grew up in a conservative family, and still live in a conservative state. It’s a self-exacerbating problem.
I can sympathize with those that really are done with the country, but I’m not ready to give up yet. We can flip the script. Pride marches should be flooded with American flags. Civil rights too. Force conservatives to come to terms with the fact that they’re no more American than the trans-commie over there waving the big-ass American flag. If we’re so lucky to make it through this and come out the other side a better country, I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to changing the flag. But right now I believe it makes strategic sense to claim the 50-stars. Fly your other flags with it if you don’t want to be confused for a conservative, then you’re essentially projecting “hey, I’m American too, dumbass!”.
TL;DR: the American left needs stop being so self-concious about what waving an American flag says about them and realize that a.) non-maga’s waving the American flag can be a powerful propaganda tool, and b.) they can take it back.
🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲 NAZI AMERICANS FUCK OFF 🇺🇲🇺🇲🇺🇲
Being an American is supposed to be about learning to be better and doing the next right thing.
This requires introspection and critically assessing our system to ascertain whether or not it’s lifting us - and the world - up. This noble, inclusive, empathetic approach (which we fail at all the time but we often try) is literally impossible for conservatives.
Yes I am speaking in grand language. Yes it’s even egotistical. But I grew up believing that the US was supposed to try and be an example what it means to do the right thing. We have lost our way and shown ourselves to be a selfish, hateful people.
Maybe we were always that, but I always hoped we could be more.
So then the question is, what should the flag represent, the people or the ideals? If it’s the ideals, then some real shitheads are trying to steal your flag.
The flag represents whatever we are, and right now we suck.
Welcome to the club. People from other countries have these thoughts for some time already.
