I’m curious how other folks have managed life after detransition. Due to mental health stuff (ended up in “grippysock jail” over half a dozen times) and later losing health insurance, I detransitioned some years ago. Semi-recently I went back on hormones, got an orchiectomy (which eased bottom dysphoria considerably), and now find myself stuck somewhere in the middle. I present as male exclusively.
I get that some people may wish to perform gender along the lines of what I’m describing, and that’s totally valid but it is not the case for me. I find the current state of affairs incredibly frustrating: I would like to be perceived as a woman. Or at least part of me does - another part doesn’t care and is waiting until I can become an hero and end the whole sordid business. In either case, presenting as female poses significant challenges, and I’m too depressed and discouraged to even try to surmount them. Even when I was more functional and had the pecuniary advantage of an allowance, it was very clear that no matter how well I honed the art of “presenting” as female, I would probably never pass.
So, to restate the question, how do people deal with the fact that (as those in some quarters of the internet put it) “you will never be a real girl”?
(and incidentally, should anyone be concerned, I’m safe and currently under psychiatric care)
I think this is just what it’s like for a while, this is what transition can be like. I also thought I would never pass, I also found it difficult and awkward to figure out how to present as a woman after having lived so long as a man. I am still haunted by whether I’m a “real” woman (and most days I feel like an imposter and deny that I am “real”).
Continuing to live as a man isn’t going to help you, though, as it sounds like you know.
All I can suggest is that you keep feminizing because it sounds like that is what is affirming for you and the alternative sounds harmful to you. It is the same for me, and many of us.
It can feel awkward and difficult at first, but hormones work magic over long periods of time and over the span of years things do get better. It’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon - so it’s OK if you have bad days, but don’t detransition or quit HRT if ever possible, that just won’t help you.
Personally I found my mood was impacted by the hormones, especially pre-orchi when testosterone would ruin my mood - might be worth figuring out what is most supportive to your mental health and doing concrete things to help stabilize your mood. Some of these things are obvious but commonly ignored, like not drinking alcohol, getting reliable and adequate sleep, eating a diverse and healthy diet, etc. I even find that drinking coffee can give me the blues the next day, so I have to be careful. How frequently I eat and what I eat impacts my mood too. I’m fragile, so I have to pay more attention and be more careful and protective of my mental health. Either way, take seriously your needs and work on protecting yourself, it makes everything easier (besides just the obvious benefits of feeling good).
Besides taking concrete steps to stabilize your mood, there are things you can do to help your transition. Again, it’s OK to have bad days, but continually seeking and implementing concrete steps in the direction of feminizing is helpful. The way this looked for me was carefully evaluating every detail and aspect of transition and trying to optimize it. For example, despite a moderately disabling needle phobia, I learned to do injections instead of taking pills, and I do believe this significantly improved my transition outcomes.
I find the dissociation allows me to look at transition from that detached and objective / technical lens, to see it as something to plan or strategize about even if I feel disconnected from it. This can be helpful, you can approach this as a “technical” problem to solve and thus move past all the emotions that are so disabling.
Another optimization I found helpful: fluctuating my weight - I need to lose weight overall, but having periods where I intentionally overate and gradually increased my weight, especially early in transition, helped distribute fat in feminine patterns. Breasts are fat stores, and I think being overweight has helped me grow breasts, and that seemed to really help me pass socially.
Sometimes people have trouble losing weight, other times people have trouble gaining enough weight. Either way, this is a place where dissociation can be helpful, if it gives you a way of looking that can give you more control, in so far as it dulls emotion and reduces everything to an objective problem to be solved. (There are obvious downsides, but if you’re already dissociated, might as well use it to your advantage to dig yourself out of the hole.)
As far as the “you will never be a real girl” - I would just ignore those sentiments for pragmatic reasons. There is a bit of a philosophical problem here that won’t be readily resolvable in any sufficient way, and the question is just a way to haunt ourselves. Lay people who hold this kind of sentiment aren’t somehow in an advantaged position, they don’t have better access to the knowledge around this issue, and in general they are actually more ignorant. The solutions offered are mostly arrived not because of some great access to ultimate truth or metaphysical insight, but because they are socially and pragmatically reasonable, like a trans woman is a woman because she identifies and lives as a woman. Sure, it’s harder for a trans woman to be socially accepted as a woman when she looks or sounds like a man to others, but a lot of trans women do transition and transitioning does eventually result in passing and living as a woman, as much as most of us might not believe this will happen to ourselves. I truly believed I would never pass, and I transitioned later in life. Yet somehow I am passing in nearly all social contexts, much to my shock and confusion, something I can scarcely believe. I don’t pass to myself in the mirror, either.
I think once you have accumulated enough progress in your transition and your health, once you are presenting as a woman and the hormones have done enough of their work, you too might find yourself accidentally just living life as a woman, at least in the eyes of everyone around you. It is a gradual shift, not a sudden one. It is as much a result of the way people see you as any change inside of you. Really, you were a woman all along anyway, though I suspect we are our own last frontier.
But all of this does require you continue to take HRT and work on feminizing and presenting as a woman. Admittedly that is difficult work, but it sounds like you’re in the middle of it already. What helped me was having clarity that this is the right direction, and that I just need to keep going in the right direction, even if I feel hopeless or skeptical that I will ever reach the destinations I want. Just keep going in the right direction and don’t worry about the outcomes.
I don’t have a lot to add that hasn’t been said. I just want to say that I used to think I’d never pass and used to deny myself all the things I wanted for that reason. Preventing myself from being overtly feminine made me feel more detached from who I was and less confident in my presentation. It’s hard to pass as a woman if you never present yourself as one. You have to develop your presentation. It takes time. It can be awkward.
made me feel more detached from who I was
I’ve been dissociating pretty much my entire life, even before puberty brought concrete evidence (in retrospect) that I’m likely trans. Presenting as female didn’t seem to fix things - I would still dissociate whenever someone was nasty, and in most social situations.
Maybe I’ve something else going on.
For me being pre-op was the thing that caused a mental dissociation the most. I did struggle to rectify my anatomy with how I felt. Not that that necessarily is it for you.
I still hope to get bottom surgery, once I feel emotionally ready to endure it and the care that comes with it. Too depressed at the moment.
Orchiectomy helped much more than I was expecting. I basically wanted it for practical reasons, like not having to take Spiro anymore and being assured that even if I lose HRT access my body won’t re-masculinize, but once I got it I was amazed at how much more human I felt.
Sounds like vagionplasty could be a bit like that.
Not a detransitioner specifically, but I am stuck in the closet for the forseeable future, so we might have some things in common 🥲
While I am not exactly a shining example of happiness and success, I have at least managed not to die by my own hand so far, which is not nothing, I guess.
There are basically two things that keep me going:
- As long as I’m still here, I can fight.
The systems that keep me in the closet do not just oppress me, they oppress most of the world. Which means that there will always be people to fight alongside. Even if trans liberation isn’t their direct goal. Even if I have to hide my transness from them.
I may never become who I’m meant to be. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t still things worth doing. Everything counts.
- I still have hope.
Consider that people during the Cold War lived in very justified fear of global nuclear armageddon. If I had lived through those times, I would never have believed that despite decades of fingers hovering over self-destruct buttons, the world would still survive. And yet, here we are.
I don’t know how, but maybe we’ll survive this apocalypse. Maybe someday it’ll be safe for me to transition. I intend to stick around to find out.
Good luck, and I wish you the best, fellow traveller. I’ve written on a similar note in another thread, maybe you’ll find it helpful: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/21727800/12811429
fellow traveler
Your post gets at an issue I’m still coming to grips with, namely political consciousness. Owing to upbringing or temperament or whatever, historically I’ve skewed quite conservative. I could see myself someday becoming a Caitlyn Jenner-style trans woman, and I’m slightly horrified at the prospect.
All I expect out of politicians is to be left the f*ck alone, but both parties seem to fail in this regard. Republicans would like to legislate us out of existence, while Democrats are glad to use us as political props.
Basically I hope to disentangle my trans-ness from politics. They say “the personal is political,” but I don’t believe it.
Do you think you’d have to pass to feel happy presenting. Or would you feel happy having people accept you as a woman who happens to be trans?
That latter part may be very difficult (or hopefully not) depending on where you live and your family/friends.
You don’t have to pass to be, or to be accepted as a “real” or “valid” girl.
Not to hand wave your feelings away. I’m sure you’ve thought this before. Personally I don’t mind not passing so long as people respect me as a woman.
Then again that might change once I’m out of the closet…
Or would you feel happy having people accept you as a woman who happens to be trans?
I live in what’s nominally a very liberal area but in my experience from when I first transitioned any “acceptance” felt either performative (e.g. “I’m such a good person for playing along with your delusion”) or coerced (e.g. “I have to respect your ““gender identity”” or I might get fired”).
But I guess the core of it is that I don’t see myself as valid. I’m not a girl because I’m not a girl. I certainly should have been born a girl, and I wish I was a girl, but if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
Gender as dictated by society is fake and that is how we deal with it. The whole point of transitioning is to be yourself, not to live up to someone else’s ideas or ideals of what you ‘should’ be.
The idea of ‘passing’ or acting in a specific way is not only unfairly limiting but also dangerous for ourselves and others.
Heck there are many cis women that don’t ‘pass’.
We understand your frustration but it should be aimed squarely at the system and colonial expectations which is what has always attempted to make the beautiful range of possibilities of what a person or many persons can be into a boring grey lump.
Be more, be you, protest the system, fight back, especially with others, push for change. Do what you need to do in order to if not be happy then content.
Edit: Also there’s no such thing as a ‘real girl’ these people completely don’t understand science, philosophy, history or anything else we have brought up here. They are dull, boring people who have sad lives and can only feel better by putting others down, ignore and block them, report them if you think it’ll do good too.
The idea of ‘passing’ or acting in a specific way is not only unfairly limiting but also dangerous for ourselves and others.
I’m not concerned about looking a certain way as much as, if this makes any sense, being in communion with the eternal essence of womanhood, the platonic form, if you will. I feel severed from this, like I was damned to be a male; all that’s left is this desperate longing. Dressing “as a woman”, or bullying people into pretending I’m a woman can’t begin to satisfy it.
there’s no such thing as a ‘real girl’
I guess we (might?) differ in that I believe there is some sort of “absolute” womanhood (and it presents in infinitely many ways); I just feel disconnected from it.
Ended up writing way more than I intended, so I’m editing this to add this introduction at the start. From the details of your post and comments, I’m not sure if you want to hear exclusively from people who have detransitioned, or if perspectives from people who are still transitioning are also welcome. I have not detransitioned, so if it’s the former, just ignore my ramblings. 😅
I remember having feelings along these lines really early in transition, during the first few chaotic months after coming out of repression. At the time I was concerned about what it means to be a woman, how a woman is supposed to think about things and look at things, feel about things, etc., and how I was supposed to realign my habits and outlook to match that hypothetical ideal.
Ultimately, what I have come to understand and internalize (probably still ongoing, but I’ve come far) is that I’ve always been a woman, so the way a woman thinks and feels is the way I’ve always thought and felt, I just didn’t know it. There’s no need to change anything inherent to us - we had already arrived before we started. For me, what needed changing was to to try to unpack the various learned behaviors that gradually replaced and buried my intuitions and impulses, and unlearn them to see where I end up. Essentially, just to be more spontaneous/genuine, and less inhibited. Still a work in progress, but it’s getting better all the time.
I’m not sure if that fits your situation, but it’s what came to mind when you described feeling disconnected from “absolute” womanhood. I’m increasingly convinced that the very idea of some kind of absolute or canonical vision of womanhood is inherently sexist and oppressively dogmatic. As you yourself pointed out, it presents in infinitely many ways, so how can it be absolute?
If these musings seem relevant to you, I highly recommend this post: https://stainedglasswoman.substack.com/p/jubilee That was one of the most helpful articles I’ve come across to help shift my understanding of and thinking about gender in general, and helped me get to my current mindset.
Bringing all this back to your original question of how I deal with the fact that I "will never be a real girl” - I essentially reject the premise of the question. To the extent that the concept of a “real girl” even exists, I already am one, and always have been. For me, the only practical questions along those lines are how I deal with not passing, or with not achieving my aesthetic preferences. Not sure if those interpretations of the question are interesting for you or not, so I’ll answer them in brief.
On not passing: Passing isn’t really important to me. I’m fortunate to live in an area where I don’t feel like my safety is threatened by being visibly trans. If that changes, I’d probably deal with it by moving somewhere else, where people are less dickish.
On not being able to look how I’d prefer: This one is a downer, for sure. It doesn’t really affect whether or not I’d transition, though. Even if I’m not pretty, I’m still so much happier transitioning than not that it just doesn’t matter in terms of decision-making. And as a bonus, I’m given to understand that feeling down over body image problems puts you in the same boat as the vast majority of women in the world (cis or not), so if anything, that should get you closer to that “absolute” ideal of womanhood anyway. I basically deal with this from both ends: by gradually making changes to get closer to where I’d like to be, and by gradually working on mental health to be less concerned about it. Even if there are limits to how far I can go in both directions, I still feel a lot better for continuously making the attempt.
I remember having feelings along these lines really early in transition, during the first few chaotic months after coming out of repression.
I suppose I may still be repressed, in that I’m subconsciously trying to contort my trans identity to fit the rigid framework that seems to be my natural habit of mind (and which characterized my young adulthood for a while - I converted to traditionalist Catholicism). Not sure how to get out of this kind of thinking, probably by interacting with people. But I don’t get out into meatspace very often and my mom forbade me from visiting the autistic friend simulator (4chan). Lemmy.blahaj seems very welcoming though, and I think this kind of discussion falls well within its scope.
I’m increasingly convinced that the very idea of some kind of absolute or canonical vision of womanhood is inherently sexist and oppressively dogmatic.
I may well be an unwitting, but inveterate sexist: my father certainly was, and watching him abuse my mother emotionally/psychologically (and sometimes physically) for decades probably did a number on me.
That went well over my head, if indeed there’s anything of substance behind the academic jargon. The closest-to-being-intelligible part was the numbered list towards the end, and I immediately take issue with the first point.
- Performativity is about using action to convey symbolic meaning to other people.
I don’t see other people as being involved at all. (To be fair, I never could figure out “other people;” in my former therapist’s words I’m “”“probably”“” on the spectrum, which might explain it). For instance, gender euphoria happens when, somehow suspending my disbelief, I catch a glimpse of myself and think maybe I could be a woman. There’s no thought of conveying meaning to anyone, or moving through society in a different way. It’s just a fleeting, momentary paradigm shift, gone as soon as I notice it when my analytical brain starts dissecting the myriad ways in which I could never be. Other people aren’t involved, and the gender euphoria centers much more around physical characteristics of my body than around clothes or ornamentation. Physical characteristics which are, in effect, “hardwired” as feminine from an evolutionary perspective (with certain body proportions and other secondary sex characteristics correlating to appropriate hormone levels during puberty and indicating particular suitability for successful childbearing). (opinions may differ on this point, and I don’t wish to make this the focus of conversation. I was taught this in college about a decade ago, and it seems eminently reasonable to me).
Maybe if I had FFS, breast implants, hip implants, and a vaginoplasty I could “fool” my brain into thinking I was a girl. But perhaps not permanently. I’m sure that cynical analytical asshole part of me would point out that I’m just a guy with an inverted benis, bags of saltwater slid beneath his chest, and metal plates screwed to his hips.
The best I can hope is to reincarnate as a proper girl. (and, thankfully, I’m convinced suicides don’t reincarnate under the best of circumstances, if at all. Otherwise I’d be out of here like a shot).
I’m not sure if you want to hear exclusively from people who have detransitioned, or if perspectives from people who are still transitioning are also welcome.
All perspectives are very welcome, and thank you for your insightful comment. It gave me a lot to think about.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply! Glad you found at least some of it interesting.
Not sure where you’d want to take it from here, so I’ll just leave you with a little more food for thought.
Based on what you wrote, it’s not entirely clear where your idea of what it means to be a girl comes from. Is it some kind of instinctive, innate image that comes from within, or is it some external image that you have been pressured or conditioned into internalizing? How can you even tell the difference?
From what you said about rigid frameworks and your upbringing, it sounds like you could benefit from learning/exploring different ways of looking at the world. In my own situation, I’ve found it helpful to study logical fallacies as a way of thinking things through more critically, and different forms of philosophy to shake my perspective up. The former gives a good lens to help decide what is useful for you in the latter. Could be worth exploring if that’s a goal of yours. Not that I have any idea whether or not you’re doing this sort of thing already.
Thanks, and sorry for writing a lot. I finally set up an appointment with a therapist (they’re trans too, which is cool), so soon I’ll have a space to sort myself out without imposing on the kindness of internet strangers.
Thanks for explaining more. We apologise for acting so rashly and will try to give a better response soon.
That’s all right. I’m still exploring how I feel myself. Usually for me introspection about gender only goes so far as “I want to kill myself,” so every post is an act of discovering and unpacking and interrogating my own beliefs. (I reserve the right to be wildly inconsistent and self-contradictory between posts 😛).
