Today 4,000 Amazon workers at a North Carolina warehouse will finish voting on a union. Employees say the company “mobilized an army” ahead of the election, siccing local police on organizers and trying to pit black and Hispanic workers against each other.
Where is this theory coming from? Because I’ve never heard it. This sounds much too 1) simplistic and 2) universalized. Every revolutionary moment happens under its own specific conditions, necessitating its own specific responses. Violence may come from the police, from the military, from the “intelligence community,” from private security, from organized crime syndicates, from paramilitary brownshirts, or any combination thereof.
While the police in the us have been infiltrated by the far right, there are other people willing to get in there and observe.
Secondly, look at uprisings in the past and present the cops are the first line of offense against the people. That’s kinda what the post is about, cops being used as a tool of the state to oppress workers. Look at some of the union wars from back in the day, it was cops that were the first line used to try and beak protests and disrupt unions.
If shit ever pops off, it takes time to mobilize national guard, and even longer for other forces. But cops are in every town, every city, every county, and they’ve been militarized heavily. They’ve been trained to think of themselves as warriors against the populace, wherein the populace are the bad guys, and they’re the thin blue line.
This is backed up by people that are cops, and know damn good and well that the infiltration by the far right is in there, waiting for when it’s time to stop pretending. There are way less people in there on behalf of left wing groups, but they exist.
But there is a limit to it. Once there’s enough power secured, the pretense goes away, and the police become an army in every way that matters, an ss, a gestapo. At that point, we’re deep into dystopia and revolution is no longer a realistic option, it goes to resistance and a gradual push, asymmetric activity.
With the cops, it isn’t really infiltration. It is already a far right institution and they know when to make racist jokes amongst themselves vs. how to act in public.
The task is to spread consciousness of the function of the police and why the criminal punishment system will not provide justice, just oppression of the left. To combat cops we must be organized and knowledgable, which by and large most people are not, including those who call themselves left, socialist, etc.
If any reader is not in an org, I recommend that you join one. If you don’t feel comfortable choosing one yet, then focus on your political education until you can. Read the history and theory of socialism, become media critical and literate, and be ready to understand the world much better, e.g. of needing to know productivity, export values, and balances of payment in order to correctly orient yourweld politically. You can only find correct ideas by discriminating between them using facts. And then, once organizing, make sure to educate others and recruit organically but with urgency.
So you think leftists can’t infiltrate and take over organizations like the right can?
Not the cops, no. Of course not. By the time the left was large enough to try that it would have no need to, but really it is inherently a far-right institution. It’s like saying your big plan is to infiltrate and take over the Nazis by doing Nazi things for decades. Friend, you don’t do that, it is counterproductive. You shoot the Nazis.
As I said in my other comment, the right isn’t “infiltrating” the cops. The cops have always been far right.
Taking down from within is a fully valid tactic when dealing with an enemy dude.
Being this vague means it is an unserious idea. It feels like we are talking about cartoons or Batman vs. Superman or something. The only orgs the left can usefully take over - really, lead - are those with which we have some kind of alignment and expectation of useful outcomes. Historically, institutions like unions. Even then, we are not taking them over, we are gaining trust and power so that we can ensure alignment of organized labor with our ends rather than those of the ruling class, which will constantly try to defang labor.
Cops are our enemies. They are, inherently, a force for ruling class interests. The only valid end goal of “infiltration” would be to get them to all shoot each other or something, and even that is silly because they’re not going to do that because we are sheriffs or something. They would do that if their little gangs have turf wars due to a destabilized state.
“Take down the cops”. So you’re suggesting we just shoot them all? Is that your idea of a not vague idea?
We do need some sort of police force, always. As much as they suck, some people will always suck, and you need an enforcement measure to help prevent theft, rape, and murder and remove from society those who commit the latter two.
I personally think taking over from within is viable
Is already more specific in a useful way. Look, not just a vague idea of “the enemy”! Now we can think about who they are, how society relates to them, and start coming up with realistic ideas for opposing them. Contrast this to, “this tactic works against enemies”, lmao.
Though of course if you look at what I’ve written it’s hardly just, “take down cops”.
So you’re suggesting we just shoot them all? Is that your idea of a not vague idea?
Shooting or jailing are the most likely outcomes for an opposing gang that must be overcome for us to be free. They’re not going to just go away on their own without a fight. They are a violent arm of the ruling class and they will be increasingly funded and expanded as conditions degrade. Of course “shoot them” is not a plan and it was not offered as one. It is just a necessity given what they will be doing. You’re not going to “infiltrate” them from the left, that is absurd. You will have to fight them.
We do need some sort of police force, always. As much as they suck, some people will always suck, and you need an enforcement measure to help prevent theft, rape, and murder and remove from society those who commit the latter two.
Policing as you know it was invented in the last 200 years or so, coinciding with the maturation of industrial capitalism. It is not some iron law of humanity, that is capitalist propaganda that regularly tries to equate its way of things with what is natural and the default despite only existing for a few hundred years of humanity’s hundreds of thousands.
The idea that modern capitalist policing prevents theft, rape, and murder is similarly absurd and those occurrences do not correlate with a smaller number of police. The police prevent almost nothing, they are a reactive group that responds to calls (sometimes) and harasses people deemed violating private property interests in some way.
Finally, unless you are talking about summary executions by police in the field, cops don’t remove anyone from society. That is left to the criminal punishment system: judges, juries, bailiffs, prisons.
Though all of this is neither here nor there. Cops right now are here to protect private property interests. They are the people enforcing evictions of the poor and marginalized, making people homeless. They harass the homeless for similar reasons, taking their possessions. They will increasingly be there to break your strike, harkening back to some of their origins. Protesting without a permit? Think again, have some jail time. Better not walk while black or the pigs are liable to find some excuse. They’re not going to stop doing any of that because some confused liberals think they can reform their essential function by being paid to do cop things. Best case scenario, the cops will harass them relentlessly until they have to move and hide their identity. Cops already do that when one of them temporarily grows a conscience.
It’s not more specific. You could argue more useful. But it’s not more specific.
Policing as you know it was invented in the last 200 years or so, coinciding with the maturation of industrial capitalism
It has been around for literally thousands of years. Policing as in, punishing crimes, is NOT a new invention. It’s hilarious that you think the usa is the first to use it as such. Some form of cop has been the strong arm of the elite for longer.
The word “police” was invented around 200 years ago. Not the concept of a law prevention/punishment/investigation guard.
Also that far back kinda fucking sucked. Far less peaceful, greater quality of life disparities(though not income, quality of life is a more important difference to me, you can argue against that if you like), no clean water. Not exactly a good example to prove your point.
The idea that modern capitalist policing prevents theft, rape, and murder is similarly absurd and those occurrences do not correlate with a smaller number of police.
Putting rapists away does, in fact, reduce rape. Same for murderers. Modern capitalist police don’t do a good job of it— that’s why I want them burned to the ground–we just don’t agree on the method. I want it more metaphorical. You want it literal.
That is left to the criminal punishment system: judges, juries, bailiffs, prisons.
…who do you think gets them into the court room. They sure as hell rarely walk themselves in.
Again, you seem to be some how turning me into a pro modern cop person inside of your head. I’m not pro capitalist union busting pig. I just think taking them out from the inside is an acceptable way to do it
Cops are literally class traitors. They are workers employed by the state to oppress workers in favor of bourgeois interests. They organize their efforts around protecting shops from perceived threats to profits - unhoused people just exustinfmg nearby, often the same for black people, teenagers just spending time together, etc. They are strikebreakers and the front line enforcing state-sponsored marginalization, itself a reflection of ruling class interests.
I am using the term correctly and it is not some kind of schoolyard insult.
Here’s the problem with all that. You weren’t calling cops class traitors, you were calling a fellow user a class traitor for suggesting that the left infiltrate the cops to counter the influence of the right, and thereby weaken or dismantle the institution.
So, you know, maybe don’t pretend that’s not what you were doing so you can pound your pulpit some more
Here’s the problem with all that. You weren’t calling cops class traitors, you were calling a fellow user a class traitor for suggesting that the left infiltrate the cops to counter the influence of the right, and thereby weaken or dismantle the institution.
Actually I called what they said, “class traitor nonsense”. Nonsense that is class traitor-ie. They are advocating for class traitorism.
So, you know, maybe don’t pretend that’s not what you were doing so you can pound your pulpit some more
As a general rule, I would recommend that you take paths of de-escalation when you get hints that you might be wrong.
Where is this theory coming from? Because I’ve never heard it. This sounds much too 1) simplistic and 2) universalized. Every revolutionary moment happens under its own specific conditions, necessitating its own specific responses. Violence may come from the police, from the military, from the “intelligence community,” from private security, from organized crime syndicates, from paramilitary brownshirts, or any combination thereof.
It comes from partisans and us history.
While the police in the us have been infiltrated by the far right, there are other people willing to get in there and observe.
Secondly, look at uprisings in the past and present the cops are the first line of offense against the people. That’s kinda what the post is about, cops being used as a tool of the state to oppress workers. Look at some of the union wars from back in the day, it was cops that were the first line used to try and beak protests and disrupt unions.
If shit ever pops off, it takes time to mobilize national guard, and even longer for other forces. But cops are in every town, every city, every county, and they’ve been militarized heavily. They’ve been trained to think of themselves as warriors against the populace, wherein the populace are the bad guys, and they’re the thin blue line.
This is backed up by people that are cops, and know damn good and well that the infiltration by the far right is in there, waiting for when it’s time to stop pretending. There are way less people in there on behalf of left wing groups, but they exist.
But there is a limit to it. Once there’s enough power secured, the pretense goes away, and the police become an army in every way that matters, an ss, a gestapo. At that point, we’re deep into dystopia and revolution is no longer a realistic option, it goes to resistance and a gradual push, asymmetric activity.
With the cops, it isn’t really infiltration. It is already a far right institution and they know when to make racist jokes amongst themselves vs. how to act in public.
The task is to spread consciousness of the function of the police and why the criminal punishment system will not provide justice, just oppression of the left. To combat cops we must be organized and knowledgable, which by and large most people are not, including those who call themselves left, socialist, etc.
If any reader is not in an org, I recommend that you join one. If you don’t feel comfortable choosing one yet, then focus on your political education until you can. Read the history and theory of socialism, become media critical and literate, and be ready to understand the world much better, e.g. of needing to know productivity, export values, and balances of payment in order to correctly orient yourweld politically. You can only find correct ideas by discriminating between them using facts. And then, once organizing, make sure to educate others and recruit organically but with urgency.
We need more leftists to become police officers.
Absolutely not. That is class traitor nonsense.
The cops are the enemy. You can try to get information out of some of them when things go down, maybe, but they are already an enemy gang.
So you think leftists can’t infiltrate and take over organizations like the right can?
Taking down from within is a fully valid tactic when dealing with an enemy dude.
Not the cops, no. Of course not. By the time the left was large enough to try that it would have no need to, but really it is inherently a far-right institution. It’s like saying your big plan is to infiltrate and take over the Nazis by doing Nazi things for decades. Friend, you don’t do that, it is counterproductive. You shoot the Nazis.
As I said in my other comment, the right isn’t “infiltrating” the cops. The cops have always been far right.
Being this vague means it is an unserious idea. It feels like we are talking about cartoons or Batman vs. Superman or something. The only orgs the left can usefully take over - really, lead - are those with which we have some kind of alignment and expectation of useful outcomes. Historically, institutions like unions. Even then, we are not taking them over, we are gaining trust and power so that we can ensure alignment of organized labor with our ends rather than those of the ruling class, which will constantly try to defang labor.
Cops are our enemies. They are, inherently, a force for ruling class interests. The only valid end goal of “infiltration” would be to get them to all shoot each other or something, and even that is silly because they’re not going to do that because we are sheriffs or something. They would do that if their little gangs have turf wars due to a destabilized state.
“Take down the cops”. So you’re suggesting we just shoot them all? Is that your idea of a not vague idea?
We do need some sort of police force, always. As much as they suck, some people will always suck, and you need an enforcement measure to help prevent theft, rape, and murder and remove from society those who commit the latter two.
I personally think taking over from within is viable
Is already more specific in a useful way. Look, not just a vague idea of “the enemy”! Now we can think about who they are, how society relates to them, and start coming up with realistic ideas for opposing them. Contrast this to, “this tactic works against enemies”, lmao.
Though of course if you look at what I’ve written it’s hardly just, “take down cops”.
Shooting or jailing are the most likely outcomes for an opposing gang that must be overcome for us to be free. They’re not going to just go away on their own without a fight. They are a violent arm of the ruling class and they will be increasingly funded and expanded as conditions degrade. Of course “shoot them” is not a plan and it was not offered as one. It is just a necessity given what they will be doing. You’re not going to “infiltrate” them from the left, that is absurd. You will have to fight them.
Policing as you know it was invented in the last 200 years or so, coinciding with the maturation of industrial capitalism. It is not some iron law of humanity, that is capitalist propaganda that regularly tries to equate its way of things with what is natural and the default despite only existing for a few hundred years of humanity’s hundreds of thousands.
The idea that modern capitalist policing prevents theft, rape, and murder is similarly absurd and those occurrences do not correlate with a smaller number of police. The police prevent almost nothing, they are a reactive group that responds to calls (sometimes) and harasses people deemed violating private property interests in some way.
Finally, unless you are talking about summary executions by police in the field, cops don’t remove anyone from society. That is left to the criminal punishment system: judges, juries, bailiffs, prisons.
Though all of this is neither here nor there. Cops right now are here to protect private property interests. They are the people enforcing evictions of the poor and marginalized, making people homeless. They harass the homeless for similar reasons, taking their possessions. They will increasingly be there to break your strike, harkening back to some of their origins. Protesting without a permit? Think again, have some jail time. Better not walk while black or the pigs are liable to find some excuse. They’re not going to stop doing any of that because some confused liberals think they can reform their essential function by being paid to do cop things. Best case scenario, the cops will harass them relentlessly until they have to move and hide their identity. Cops already do that when one of them temporarily grows a conscience.
It’s not more specific. You could argue more useful. But it’s not more specific.
It has been around for literally thousands of years. Policing as in, punishing crimes, is NOT a new invention. It’s hilarious that you think the usa is the first to use it as such. Some form of cop has been the strong arm of the elite for longer.
The word “police” was invented around 200 years ago. Not the concept of a law prevention/punishment/investigation guard.
Also that far back kinda fucking sucked. Far less peaceful, greater quality of life disparities(though not income, quality of life is a more important difference to me, you can argue against that if you like), no clean water. Not exactly a good example to prove your point.
Putting rapists away does, in fact, reduce rape. Same for murderers. Modern capitalist police don’t do a good job of it— that’s why I want them burned to the ground–we just don’t agree on the method. I want it more metaphorical. You want it literal.
…who do you think gets them into the court room. They sure as hell rarely walk themselves in.
Again, you seem to be some how turning me into a pro modern cop person inside of your head. I’m not pro capitalist union busting pig. I just think taking them out from the inside is an acceptable way to do it
Once you start throwing class traitor and bootlicker around, you become the asshole. Don’t become the asshole.
Cops are literally class traitors. They are workers employed by the state to oppress workers in favor of bourgeois interests. They organize their efforts around protecting shops from perceived threats to profits - unhoused people just exustinfmg nearby, often the same for black people, teenagers just spending time together, etc. They are strikebreakers and the front line enforcing state-sponsored marginalization, itself a reflection of ruling class interests.
I am using the term correctly and it is not some kind of schoolyard insult.
Here’s the problem with all that. You weren’t calling cops class traitors, you were calling a fellow user a class traitor for suggesting that the left infiltrate the cops to counter the influence of the right, and thereby weaken or dismantle the institution.
So, you know, maybe don’t pretend that’s not what you were doing so you can pound your pulpit some more
Actually I called what they said, “class traitor nonsense”. Nonsense that is class traitor-ie. They are advocating for class traitorism.
As a general rule, I would recommend that you take paths of de-escalation when you get hints that you might be wrong.
Wait, are you actually claiming that advocating the risk of infiltrating an enemy organization is somehow a betrayal? That’s just stupid.