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Wow the sheer lack of self-recognition in this guy… Dude, you ARE the Nazi that you pretend to be fighting against. It doesn’t matter if you’re American or Russian, you ‘proud boys’ are all the same.
Thank God the Ukrainian military isn’t notoriously packed with Nazis! Because Biden has already given $75 billion to these people, and what do you call someone who gives money to Nazis?
Prescott Bush?
They didn’t deny that. Both armies are packed with nationalists
Did you wake up this morning telling yourself that you were going to both-sides Nazism?
Could you give me a source or any proof that the Russian army is packed with Nazis?
They constantly crack down on fascists all the time ever since Putin was in office. Russia probably has the strongest anti Nazi culture of any country
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/24/world/europe/24iht-russia.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-medvedev-nationalism-idUSTRE70G4DP20110117
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2015/9/23/behind-russias-ultra-nationalist-crackdown
Critics say the Kremlin is to blame for the rise in neo-nationalist movements, arguing they have been allowed to flourish in recent years.
Unlike many human rights activists and the country’s marginalized gay community, neo-nationalists have been allowed to hold rallies – a right guaranteed by the Russian constitution.
Yet amid this crackdown, President Vladimir Putin’s government has also sought to forge its own state nationalism – and used elements of the ultra-nationalist agenda in its increasingly anti-Western, neo-conservative and isolationist ideology
many ultra-nationalists fled Russia – sometimes preferring to fight in eastern Ukraine on both sides of the conflict.
The largest players in the field of official, Kremlin-sanctioned nationalism are the deeply conservative and immensely powerful Russian Orthodox Church, the resurgent “armies” of Cossacks, czarist-era paramilitary forces, and right-wing parties.
the Kremlin cultivates ties with [far right groups] in the European Union to promote Moscow’s agenda. (…) representatives of Western far-right political parties, including neo-Nazi groups from Germany, Greece, and the UK, met for a Kremlin-funded conference in St Petersburg
Very strong antifascist culture indeed.
That’s great you’re so easily willing to only read and absorb the inserted opionated editorial propaganda yet completely ignore the real reporting backed by material reality
Where are all the Nazis and nationalists in the military and government like you claimed. Tell me
I would call someone who gives money to Nazis a Nazi.
That said, Russia has been funding alt-right and neo-Nazi groups in the US. So by your point, Russia is also Nazi.
So between the US, Russia, and Ukraine, all of them are Nazis.
So the Russia-Ukrainan war is like a big Nazi infight.
So the Russia-Ukrainan war is like a big Nazi infight.
Seems about right. Both also have their most, eh, enthusiastic volunteer units cosplaying Nazis in symbolic. Though Ukrainians less so - first, they were doing that since 2014, second, they have a full mobilization, so neo-Nazi units, while still existent, were much less likely to preserve their character.
Unlike Russia, who claims to be fighting Nazis while bringing in people who proudly wear their Nazi tattoos in both the public and private armies. And really, if you believe the hype that Russia is fighting against Nazis then you haven’t been paying attention, and I have a bridge to sell you.
Where is the evidence for this? Rehabilitation of Nazism is against the law in Russia but encouraged in both the USA and Ukraine.
Just to be clear, the US hasn’t provided any money. They’ve provided that much value in assets. Those assets already existed and we’re sitting around in storage, which required money to maintain anyway. They were constructed with the idea of fighting both China and Russia at the same time. They are being used to fight Russia, which decreases the level of stock that needs to be maintained to fight both of those nations at once. It’s quite possibly saving money, or at least not costing nearly the price tag that is said.
The US has been rather open about funding the entire Ukrainian government more or less since the war began (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2022/04/28/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-request-to-congress-for-additional-funding-to-support-ukraine/), which cannot be done entirely by sending them old military equipment. And the idea that we are saving money by provoking a nuclear power has got to be one of the craziest things I have read in quite some time.
It’s largely arms and ammunition.
And the idea that we are saving money by provoking a nuclear power has got to be one of the craziest things I have read in quite some time.
What does them having nuclear weapons have to do with anything? Either they’re in the wrong for invading a sovereign country or not (although international politics is never about right and wrong, but it’s about power). Just because they have nuclear weapons they should be allowed to do whatever they want? So the US should be free to invade any other nation without consequences too, right? What a joke.
If we’re removing the need to maintain old equipment, it’s removing a cost. The cost was maintained to fight Russia, and this weakens Russia, so future costs are decreased. It saves money, right? It doesn’t matter who is provoked. It doesn’t change that fact. Sure, we’re also sending aid and other things, but the goal is to create a good outcome for the US. Ukraine produces a lot of food, so securing them is in our benefit, along with any other agreements. You can disagree with this if you want, but that’s international politics. Russia wanted the same except with total annexation and subservience. I’d say remaining autonomous is a better outcome for them.
What does them having nuclear weapons have to do with anything?
Oh I don’t know, their ability to drive the human species to extinction? You can’t enjoy your treats if you’ve been incinerated in a nuclear blast 😉
Just because they have nuclear weapons they should be allowed to do whatever they want?
Remind me again which country developed these weapons first, and then used them against civilian targets when their enemy had already been begging to surrender for six months?
So the US should be free to invade any other nation without consequences too, right? What a joke.
Did you know that history didn’t actually begin with the Ukraine War? Are you aware of how many governments the USA has overthrown worldwide since WW2?
and this weakens Russia
Weakness is when the enemy occupies a third of your territory and most of your productive capacity (Ukraine) and builds or strengthens alliances with other growing world powers (China, India, Brazil, and others). Weakness is when even liberals begin to understand the term “dedollarization,” which has the potential to be as devastating to the USA as a nuclear war.
It saves money, right?
Once again, you don’t seem to understand that you can’t save money when you’re dead. You would also save far more money if you took a break from deep-throating the capitalist boot.
Russia wanted the same except with total annexation and subservience
Where did any Russian official announce that the total conquest of Ukraine was the goal of the Special Military Operation? The goal was the denazification of Ukraine and the protection of Russian-speaking populations in the east. So long as Nazis keep committing suicide by hurling themselves into Russian artillery bombardments, I don’t see how these goals are difficult to achieve.
You are implying I agree with US invasions, which I don’t.
You’re also implying that since the US did it Russia should be allowed to. Is it bad when the US does it or not? If the US doing it is bad, then Russia doing it must also be bad (unless you don’t actually care about invasions, but just like Russia/don’t like the US). Be consistent or your opinion doesn’t have any value.
Russia is “allowed” to do it for the same reason the US was “allowed” to invade Iraq.
Euromaidenpress, lmao
How long until people start unironically and uncritically reposting from the Azov telegram channels?
Bad source for sure though there is ample evidence (you can watch videos of it) of quite large-scale execution and torture of PoWs among Russian and Wagner troops. It has happened on both sides but certainly far more on the Russian side…
but certainly far more on the Russian side…
Can you give a credible source to this claim?
There has been no quantitative data released but based on solid reporting in re-taken areas e.g., Bucha it is evident that there were large-scale arbitrary executions.
By contrast, Russian media has presented little evidence of large-scale executions. There have been individual cases but there is no evidence to suggest it is as systemic.
While you are right to critique my claim, which I should not have made with such certainty perhaps, one can collate the available evidence and make a claim with reasonable-albeit not total-confidence. If Russia did have evidence of large-scale execution of PoWs, they’d obviously put it in their own friendly media outlets + it would be in Russian Telegrams.
How much Russian do you speak?
I have a few friends who do that I trust in this matter + I follow a lot of people on both sides of the war (support-wise) who do speak Russian and who report it into English. While this doesn’t give as good a view as someone who actually speaks Russian, it still provides a good view overall and I haven’t had any reason to doubt my conclusions on this matter accordingly.
Of course, you are under no obligation to believe me, and I obviously wont take offence or whatever if you disagree, it’s just what I believe based on the evidence I have collated. It’s impossible to be certain until proper quantitative data is put together in a good study, though.
Yeah I’m going to wait until the war is done, because this all seems highly anecdotal. Thanks for being intellectually honest about where you’re coming from though.
That’s fully understandable and probably the better take tbh. If I was in social science mode I’d agree with you, this is just my rough vibe from collating stuff so I fully appreciate that.
Wasn’t Bucha the place that had pictures of bodies with the white armbands (Russian collaborators in occupied territories) and Russian ration packs in the background and everyone was like “Russia did this!”
Yep, the massacre was probably from Ukraine’s side
seborrheic dermatitis
hey, I have that on my face
Can bad things about Russia not be pointed out? I thought hexbear users were happy to point out when Russia was in the wrong.
Sure, but use proper sources.
What the fuck…
War is ugly. That’s probably happening on both sides. You try not killing a guy that’s was shooting to kill you.
POWs typically aren’t shooting to kill you
That’s after you whip thier ass
Then don’t bomb Russian civilians and they won’t fight back
Bombing Russian civilians bad, bombing Ukrainian civilians good, right?
Since Ukraine started the fight by attacking ethnic Russians and murdering civilians in the Donbass then don’t be surprised when Russia defends it’s people
alex jones moment
Do you have a less biased source than Euromaiden press lol? I don’t disbelieve you, just not exactly unbiased
It sure didn’t take long for the Russian troll bots to show up on Lemmy
They were already here.
Killing POWs is not defending its people.
If by “defends its people” you mean “uses it as an excuse to invade the entire country of Ukraine” then… sure.
You know the ground war would stop immediately if Russia got out of Ukraine, yes?
Got any testimony from Ukraine soldiers saying they kill POWs?
Until you do, gtfo with “they’re probably both doing it”
Actually, there have been very disturbing videos from both Russians and Ukrainians, featuring gruesome deaths of people quite definitely unarmed and taken PoW. Mostly from Russians, but not every one.
Got any testimony from Ukraine soldiers saying they kill POWs?
If they have half a brain they probably wouldn’t admit to that as it would be self-incriminating.🤣
Eh, there is some evidence of it occurring here and there. I think I have seen like 5 or 6 of Ukrainians torturing or killing POWs. If you want, I can go get some links to videos and news articles. It’s pretty rare and seems way more prevalent on the Russian side, who have filmed themselves committing some truly barbaric things, including emasculations and decapitations.
Well maybe. Humans are the worst. However we have evidence that russia is killing more than taking prisoners and kidnapping children.
Also every information we get about this war is most probably placed in the internet on purpose. You can’t trust either Ukraine or Russian news.
Those are Ukranians, both of them, no Russian would say that and since none of you know the difference between Russian and Ukrainian it’s too easy to fool people
If they’re Ukrainians, why the interviewer says “Добрый день”, in Russian (notice how the “e” is pronounced “je”) instead of “Хороший день” or “Добрий ранок”, in Ukrainian (notice how the “e” is pronounced “e”)?
Most Ukrainians also speak Russian. All my Ukrainian friends only speak Russian online because they can reach more people through it. They aren’t bound to speaking Ukrainian only.
OC said none of us know the difference between Russian and Ukrainian. I proved that person wrong.
Yes and you can neither trust the western news. The Nato and the west uses the conflict to their own purposes. Like every country does. This fight between Russia and the West isn’t new. We’ve seen it long before.
I totally disagree with the war but i also find it irresponsible to only speak up when “bad commie Russia” does something. But when the US kills thousands of civilians in completely unjustified wars around the world nobody cares in the west.
Since the fall of the Warsaw pact there is no more any justification for the existence of the Nato alliance.
I’m anti-war and i think this should end as quickly as it began but what Zelensky is doing is no more than selling out his country to the west. For the next centuries Ukraine will be in debt to the western nations and by that, enslaved by them.
If zelensky would care about his people he would come to the table and find an agreement with the other side. Everyone has to make compromises in this war. No side will have a total win, but a first world war like trench war that takes years isn’t helpful to neither of the sides. Only more people will die. What is more important, that the people live in Russian donbass or Ukrainian donbass, or that the people will die.
Also the west doesn’t care about Ukraine, all they care about is hurting Russia. Some years back nobody in Europe or Nato would’ve considered Ukraine as a viable partner. Now out of nowhere they do
If zelensky would care about his people he would come to the table and find an agreement with the other side.
The agreement being Russia gets the fuck out of Ukraine you. fucking. invaders.
I served in Iraq. Shooting an unarmed combatant is murder.
I never said it wasn’t, I just said shit like that happens during war.
Yea bud, put down the Xbox controller and go touch some grass. War isn’t like Call of Duty
Yeah, it totally doesn’t happen. I highly doubt you even served…
https://www.newsweek.com/ukrainian-troops-seen-killing-russian-pows-video-1695896
2ID 2d BCT 44 Eng Btn - 2004 2008
You’re an angry white male who hates the fact he is obsolete & the rest of the world has moved on without you.
You’ll never get ahead and nobody cares except you. Grow up and serve if you think you’re a patriot.
No, you said you assumed shit like that happens during war on both sides.
Yes, American soldiers would never do such things. They are distributing bananas and chocolate during war times to POW, have a lot of occasions to do so during the last decades.
Side note: The American army unofficially encourages their combat arms branch soldiers to shoot wounded combatants during combat and to double-tap the wounded and the dead while assaulting through killzones so they don’t have to worry about ‘bullshit rules’ relating to capturing POWs including ‘bullshit’ things such as delivering life-saving first aid or the “hassle” of transporting them to a location to properly process them as POWs under the international rules of war.
Lemme put it this way. If I’m a brown person and I’ve made an enemy of both the Taliban and the U.S. military: which side do you think is better to be caught by? The side that will put a bullet in your head, or the side that will put an electric drill inside your head?
War is war. Either you are appalled that people are killing each other or you aren’t, don’t act like murderers not following “rules” matters to you.
Not so much.
What do American soldiers have to do with this? That is not even a good whataboutism.
whataboutism 
this type of lazy between the ears thinking is making this worse for everyone; please consider stopping.
Shouting “whataboutism” every time someone brings up context isn’t lazy?
You can judge governments against perfection, you can judge them against the governments they replaced, or you can judge them against peer governments. The two realistic options involve comparisons, and those types of comparisons happen to be a key component of what passes for international law, too.
Fascinating that you decided my comment was worthy of being called out for being lazy, yet the comment that does not engage with the discussion, instead discarding it as “whataboutism” gets no such scrutiny from you. It seems as though your issue isn’t truly “lazy thinking” but instead wether or not I support your worldview.
I will stop as soon as the gut-reaction to context isn’t to regurgitate an old thought-terminating psyop.
The only other tactic they have is ChatGPT generated word salad though.
Because the atomic unit of propaganda is not lies, it’s emphasis. With any article about anything, the most important question to ask is “Why are they writing about this right now, instead of anything else?” Granted, prisoner killing strikes most of us as a ghoulsh thing, but that alone doesnt make this newsworthy in the context of a war. The newsworthy part comes when the western press chooses to amplify this story while quashing others, playing up the other team’s crimes and ignoring our own,giving rise to the narrative of the enemy as universally inhuman and unworthy of mercy. Our war crimes are always accidents and mistakes, their war crimes are always the result of their inherent (perhaps hereditary) bloodlust.
The point of this “whataboutism” it to point out that this article is presenting the killing of prisoners of war as some kind of horrifying aberration from the norm, without actually saying what the norm is. Because the norm, for my entire life, has been the unnacountable mass slaughter by the US of not just POWs, but innocent people.
The killing of POWs is the norm, we set the norm, and now we’re crying foul when our enemies follow this norm while sweeping it under the rug when our allies do the same.
Am I saying this makes the killing of POWs morally good? No. Byt what I am saying is that this article was written in bad faith to perpetuate a war where our ally has been shelling civillians and deploying death squads for nine years, with shells and death squad training we gave them.
Decrying the killing of noncombatants is fine and good in a vaccum, but it’s a sick joke coming from the 200-year reigning Champion of Noncombatant Murder.
International law is one area where whataboutism is a perfectly valid and accepted line of argument. Unlike domestic law, there is no enforcement mechanism for stuff like war crimes and most laws aren’t clearly written down. If a country like Russia or the US executes some prisoners of war, the war police isn’t going to show up to write them a ticket.
International law only exists where countries agree it exists. Part of that agreement is treaties and the like, but most of it is what International lawyers call “state practice”. Countries can say that a law exists all they want, but if they don’t follow the law in their actions then the law doesn’t exist.
Therefore, “America, you consistently fail to follow this law so I’m entitled to act as if it doesn’t exist” is a totally reasonable argument as far as International law is concerned.
He also says his comrades once took captive a Polish soldier, forced him to stand on his knees, and killed him by shooting him in the head.
Sounds like a foreign mercenary to which the laws of war relating to prisoners of war don’t apply.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
the guy who killed him is also a mercenary. and poles live in ukraine, there are lawful combatants from the polish citizens of ukraine.
e: the article says “volunteer” but that still seems like something that would need a trial to determine whether they lacked protections before a summary execution. that should apply to any participants from neighboring countries’ ethnicities
The article also says this guy was recruited from prison, something Wagner’s been doing from the start. AFAIK this is an actual “both sides” thing, and I’m sure that both Ukraine and Russia are guilty of more than we currently know as a result of this practice.
The definition of mercenary for POW purposes requires that the mercenary not be from the country which the armed forces are from. Russian guy fighting for Russian military via PMC is not a mercenary. Polish guy fighting for Ukranian military via PMC could be.
You’re right in that a trial should be conducted but given that there’s plenty of Ukrainians uploading videos of them torturing Russian POWs, I think we’re well past that point.
you could also say the folding of the ukrainian foreign legion into the territorial defense forces formally makes them not mercenaries with an equal legal footing. either we stringently follow the geneva conventions and there are no mercenaries on either side, or we call a spade a spade
Bad take. Killing prisoners is unacceptable if it isn’t in crisis or revolution.
Counterpoint: every last Azovite should have been lined up and shot after Mariupol, not bartered back to Ukraine in prisoner exchanges.
I don’t think volunteers in the army itself count as mercenaries. Certainly I see no reason why international law as such doesn’t apply to them.
I really don’t think it is good to justify arbitrary executions of PoWs.
Removed by mod
Yes. Denigrating a group of men taken as prisoners of war is a great comparison to executing them. They are obviously the same things and are expressly valid excuses from war crimes.
denigrating a group of people is part of the process by which a society decides to kill them all
Removed by mod
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When are you guys going to abandon this tankie infested shit hole of a world news sub and go to another one?
Wouldn’t they just move to whatever the new Community is? I think you either need to convince your instance to defederate, join something like Beehaw, or create your own instance if you don’t want to see those comments.
The world news sub on .world doesn’t have this issue, probably because the mods deal with genocide deniers there. It’s good to remember .ml has been here since the beginning and most of the /c/'s here were created when basically a majority of users were tankies
What is a “POW”?
Prisoner of war.
Thankyouu
🥰
Ahhhh Euromaidan Press. The legitimacy beneath my stream of piss coming from the 20th floor balcony.
Sorry that it is not in meme form.
The Russians have also NOT killed POWs.
This is a war between armies of hundreds of thousands of combatants on each side. It’s statistically impossible that neither side engaged in killing POWs, the question is who did it more? What is the culture of the army? Is it something done occasionally by individual units, hidden from commanders, or is it just accepted by the entire command structure?
During the battle of Mariupol, after cornering Azov (the hardcore Nazi unit) in the metalworking plant, the Russian forces offered them literally like a dozen chances to surrender.
To the extent that the Russian public was getting seriously angry about it!
The Azov commanders wouldn't give in*!
*They surrendered just days laterAnd how did the Ukrainians react to this?
Having followed this war closely from the start, the “vibe” I get is that Russia is continuously humanitarian, frequently offers Ukrainians the chance to surrender and treats POWs well on the whole as a matter of military policy, and I feel confident saying the majority of mistreatment of POWs by the Russian side would have been done by Wagner, not the RU Army. Conversely, the Ukrainian army, riddled with rabid fascists and roving paramilitaries barely under the control of the political leadership, has constantly tortured and killed POWs and gloated about it on social media. I realise I should have saved the evidence, but that wasn’t exactly the frame of mind I was in while seeing it at the time.
But when the OFFICIAL Twitter account of the National Guard posts shit like this
I think it’s safe to say ‘humanization of the enemy’ is not on the agenda.
riddled with rabid fascists and roving paramilitaries barely under the control of the political leadership, has constantly tortured and killed POWs
Civillians too!
remember that so suuuper cool time when Azov took a bunch of human shields prisoner, and then recorded themselves playing the terminator theme song to tweet at arnold swartzenager about how cool his support was
also, HORRIFYING that I could only find this video with titles that refer to the ethnic russian civilian meat shields as russian sabateurs
fucking nazis burn all Azov
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Not to mention the Snake Island debacle.
If you don’t recall, right at the start of the war, a small Ukrainian National Guard unit was stationed on “Snake Island”, a tiny island in the Black Sea. A Russian warship approached the island and told them by radio to surrender. The commander replied “Russian warship, go fuck yourself!”. The Russian warship opened fire and blew them all away. For their brave sacrifice, Zelensky posthumously awarded the “thirteen brave soldiers of Snake Island” various medals and honors, and "Russian warship, go fuck yourself! became a shining symbol of Ukrainian resistance against Russian aggression, plastered over the west’s print and social media for days, until whatever the next thing was replaced it.
How it actually went:
About two weeks later, it turned out they actually had just surrendered and been captured. And there weren’t thirteen, there were EIGHTY ONE of them. One of the soldiers told a reporter their commander was “an idiot trying to get us killed” and that Zelensky “didn’t even care to know our names”.
A couple of things to ponder:
-
Assume true. What would Putin say or do to this soldier if they were to meet? Publicly? Privately?
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Assume a Ukrainian soldier has done the same. What would Zelenskyy say or do to his soldier? Publicly? Privately?
Think about those for a while. What will people of all priorities (pro-Russia, pro-Ukraine, anti-conflict, etc.) think about the decisions that are made and things that are said?
I don’t have the answers to these questions, but know what my guesses would be and I can see people of either side of this conflict giving any one of the possible answers and justifying it either way.
e.g. Imagine Putin has his soldier court-martialled and shot; Some pro-Russians will proclaim this a strong move. Others will say that he should not have done that because those Ukrainians deserved to be murdered and the soldier did the right thing. Likewise if Putin was to throw this soldier in prison, some might say it wasn’t enough and others might say that he shouldn’t even be in there. (NB: I don’t believe anyone deserves to be murdered. Ukrainian or Russian. This is all hypothetical.)
Alternatively, we might have Putin outwardly congratulate this soldier. This would be an internationally unpopular move, more-so than having the soldier shot, because the West kind of expects Putin to “deal with” people who make him look bad, but some pro-Russians would proclaim it a strong move. Others will think that it was a bad idea but say nothing.
Zelenskyy might have his own soldier court-martialled and shot. If he is truly interested in aligning with the West as Russia fears, he probably wouldn’t do this. He’d instead have the soldier tried in court, and if found guilty, possibly even turned over to Russia if it could be guaranteed the soldier was going to be imprisoned for his crimes and not tortured or shot.
Would Russia consider turning over their own POW murderers to Ukraine? Probably not. They don’t recognise Ukraine.
It would be nice if they did though. If they realised where their soldiers and tanks were they might be able to get them out of there and this conflict would be over. Enough lives have been lost to make up for any transgressions either way at this point.
-
Is there an English source for this one that isn’t, well, explicitly a front for laundering neoliberalism?
Not that I doubt that Russian (or Ukrainian) soldiers are doing war crimes on the regular, but a slightly less biased source would be nice if I plan to share it.
Euromaidan press, truly the pinnacle of modern journalism
Spamming the same fake news?
We need a rule against posting nazi websites and yes, this is a nazi website and no, the Russians aren’t the bad guys
Yes, you’re right. There is no bad thing in killing and raping women, children and elder people, and there is no bad thing in bombing kindergartens, hospitals, and even theaters with the word “ДІТЕИ” written at the front.
Russians are not the ones waving SS symbols around, that’s the Ukrainian Nazis, it’s also the Ukrainians who are the ones attacking ethnic minorities and supporting dictators in the Middle-East
Ah yes, right wing nationalism is a problem exclusively in Ukraine. Russia invading a neighbour has nothing to do with Russification.
www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/return-russian-ethnonationalism
Russia is democratic nation?
Of course! They vote regularly! Sometimes even double the population of a city is voting!
Russians are not the ones waving SS symbols around
I present to you, ladies and gentlemen, … DShRG “Rusich”.
it’s also the Ukrainians who are the ones attacking ethnic minorities and supporting dictators in the Middle-East
They’ve got parity in that.
Do you have proof they are Nazis?
Nazis famously elect Jewish leaders, so there’s one
Not that funny really. A Nazi is a person following a certain ideology, which takes only one level of generalization to imagine a Jewish Nazi being Nazi to Germans, Poles and Frenchmen. One level is not that much.
And references to German Conservative symbols are kinda popular among Ukrainian nationalists. Poverty and shitty education through the years of independence do that. Not much different from Russia itself or many other former Soviet republics (somehow European, of course, it’s hard to imagine a Nazi Uzbek or Tajik, but Tajik nationalists love Achaemenid empire and Samanid kingdom very much) or even former Warsaw Pact countries.
