They are getting lumped together because that’s the context of what OP did. OP has received mod action twice, both times for making directed commentary on the validity of another person’s gender (aka disrespecting).
But yeah, I think curbstickle misread your intent–you are both in the right here there’s just some miscommunication, Hopefully this clarifies. :)
Yes, you are missing the larger context, but I appreciate the question. :) The larger context is that the LBZ admin is an older trans woman herself, and knows how the patterns of transphobia play out in online spaces. She recognizes that, whether or not Person X is “genuine” or “valid” in their gender identity, allowing people to scream “Identity X isn’t real” or similar in response to their mere existence is dangerous in that it makes the site worse and more toxic for every “genuine” or “valid” trans person.
Whether or not species and gender are two different things is largely irrelevant here, because we’re simply talking the context of keeping a sane and non-violent space for trans people. Most spaces take a more relaxed approach because they are not made by or for trans people, and that’s totally fine. But Ada, as a trans person, has chosen the more unique method of just blanket-banning any questioning or directed criticism of other users’ gender (which she labels “gatekeeping”) in order to keep the space peaceful and respectful.
And the thing is, whatever you or OP thinks about it, it works. That’s why you’ll see so many people defend Ada. Are there some assholes out there intentionally making a mockery of gender diversity? For sure! But does it help trans people to throw insults and yell about it in their spaces, instead of quietly blocking and reporting? For many, the answer is a resounding no.
Genuinely hope this helps! I get the vibe you are asking these questions with sincerity, so I am putting in the effort for ya here. :)
Thank you, I think I understand what you’re getting at, at least from the perspective of preemptively trying to get ahead of something perceived as threatening to a community as a whole.
I mean, I may not necessarily agree with all aspects of the situation as a whole, but the logic on behalf of the admin actions I think I can put myself in the shoes of.
Yes, you are missing the larger context, but I appreciate the question. :) The larger context is that the LBZ admin is an older trans woman herself, and knows how the patterns of transphobia play out in online spaces. She recognizes that, whether or not Person X is “genuine” or “valid” in their gender identity, allowing people to scream “Identity X isn’t real” or similar in response to their mere existence is dangerous in that it makes the site worse and more toxic for every “genuine” or “valid” trans person.
And when ‘dogfucker’ is next, it will be insisted that their gender is valid too, because by refusing to acknowledge any definition of the term, you turn gender itself into an empty mockery.
But does it help trans people to throw insults and yell about it in their spaces, instead of quietly blocking and reporting?
Yes, why do that when you can quietly report and ban anyone who disagrees with the gender of dragonfucker.
“Not understanding” doesnt mean “dont respect them” though.
I don’t get it either, but it costs me absolutely nothing to use a neopronoun or anything else.
If you dont understand, you could either try to understand, or just use someone’s neopronouns and move on. Or not reply at all.
Okay, but as I noted, I used Drag’s pronouns. I don’t remember ever using the wrong pronouns for Drag, though I’m sure a ‘they’ or the like slipped in in some deeply buried comment.
The issue becomes whether gender has any limits for what it means. I objected to both the fantastic and the species. For that reason, on another instance, in a discussion that did not involve Drag or Blahaj admins, I was banned from a bunch of comms that I hadn’t even commented in in months.
I didn’t say that, but I do think it would be good for you to reconsider your wording, especially considering you admit to not understanding, and then acknowledged later the relation to trans feelings and how the two can be related.
But I’m not a “ban them” kind of guy. I’m more of a “remove their comment and explain” kind of guy.
My comment wasn’t intended to suggest that being trans is a form of gender cosplay, so I apologize if that was how it read.
However, I will stand behind my statement that identifying as a totally different species is indeed pure fantasy that makes no real world sense to me.
I do support it in the same vein that I support all creativity and fun. Furries-- fuck if I understand that, but if no one (or animal) is getting hurt, go wild and have a great time.
That being said, if I was asked by a furry to only refer to them as a dog or cat in all real world scenarios because that’s the species they identify as, I simply cannot pander and think it’s a pretty unreasonable and fantastical expectation.
I’m going to stand behind my statement that you’re being demeaning for no reason then.
Let’s try this. I’m going to just change a few words, and let’s see how this feels to you:
That being said, if I was asked by a trans woman to only refer to them as a woman in all real world scenarios because that’s the gender they identify as, I simply cannot pander and think it’s a pretty unreasonable and fantastical expectation.
That would be a pretty shitty take considering all we know about being trans, right?
Why does it have to make sense to you for you to not be shitty about it?
Why put so much effort in to be antagonistic rather than just acknowledge and either ignore and move on or refer to others as they’d prefer?
I don’t consider it much different, personally. It doesn’t bother or offend me. It doesnt hurt me to call someone by whatever they want to be called.
What I don’t feel is a need to be hurtful in reference to their feelings.
You can change all the words you want, but that’s not what I said, and I feel it’s insincere to suggest the two statements are equal.
I’m allowed to draw a line and say, “this isn’t my burden to bear, and I don’t have to comply to simply avoid a rocked boat.”
The offensive part to me I suspect is the same thing op finds offensive, which is the expectation that I am to comply with what is clearly someone’s fantasy in all shape and definition.
We know gender identity is fluid and complex. We know sexuality is fluid and complex. The verdict is definitely way out there that species falls into this category, too.
I feel it’s insincere to suggest the two statements are equal.
I think its insincere to suggest they aren’t. After all…
what is clearly someone’s fantasy in all shape and definition.
The verdict is definitely way out there that species falls into this column, too.
These two statements seem to be completely opposed to each other.
Not to mention, that same attitude was held towards trans folks for a long time, wasn’t it? That they couldn’t possibly feel that way, and it was just an expression of homosexuality?
Transracialism has way more merit than transpeciesism, though.
I grew up amongst hispanic families, and definitely don’t find it far fetched to identify with a different race, culturally and behaviorally. So I could see it, even though it might be a bit misplaced.
I can’t comprehend it any more than I can being trans, but why not give them basic respect for how they feel, regardless of what you think about it?
Is someone getting physically hurt by using neopronouns or by being respectful toward their feelings?
Are you being hurtful by saying they are cosplaying, in the same way that it would be hurtful to someone who is trans?
Thats kind of the line there dude. Your opinion on their lived experience is irrelevant, regardless of what I may think of it or you may think of it. Maybe they are a troll, maybe not.
Does it really harm you to not be demeaning towards others about it though?
I can’t comprehend it any more than I can being trans, but why not give them basic respect for how they feel, regardless of what you think about it?
I can comprehend being trans. If I think about myself in a female body, trapped indefinitely, I feel horrified - like I would be alien in my own skin. That horror I feel is only abstract, and nothing compared to what trans people experience, but the principle is clear.
Is someone getting physically hurt by using neopronouns or by being respectful toward their feelings?
Again. At no point are neopronouns involved in this dispute.
Are you being hurtful by saying they are cosplaying, in the same way that it would be hurtful to someone who is trans?
Is it not hurtful to trans folk to equate their identities to someone who wants to play at being a dragon? Or more precisely, a dragonfucker?
Thats kind of the line there dude. Your opinion on their lived experience is irrelevant, regardless of what I may think of it or you may think of it. Maybe they are a troll, maybe not.
Does it really harm you to not be demeaning towards others about it though?
That they can’t feel like they are on the inside. Yes.
I can comprehend being trans. If I think about myself in a female body, trapped indefinitely, I feel horrified - like I would be alien in my own skin. That horror I feel is only abstract, and nothing compared to what trans people experience, but the principle is clear.
Principle, but not full comprehension. You logically understand the concepts. You dont fully comprehend it, and neither do I.
Just because I understand more relative to trans folks than I would for others that feel more unique doesn’t mean I can’t extend them the same basic respect and dignity though. If that’s how they feel, thats how they feel.
Again. At no point are neopronouns involved in this dispute.
Other than derogatory comments around them, like “cosplaying” as noted above. Yes.
Is it not hurtful to trans folk to equate their identities to someone who wants to play at being a dragon? Or more precisely, a dragonfucker?
Ah, so you speak for all trans folks then? Despite not being trans? Your basic understanding of the principles of being trans gives you the keen knowledge and insight to decide how all trans folks should feel relative about what someone else thinks of themselves on the inside?
Right. Cmon man. Youre better than this.
Having opinions is demeaning?
Like most other things in life - it depends on the presentation.
And yeah, I’d say even in this comment chain you’ve been pretty damn demeaning. Obviously my opinion, and to be clear I don’t think you are at all a bad person.
But this, overall - yeah man you’ve got a really shitty take on this one. Its worth you spending time thinking about rather than reacting more, IMO.
“Not understanding” doesnt mean “dont respect them” though.
I don’t get it either, but it costs me absolutely nothing to use a neopronoun or anything else.
If you dont understand, you could either try to understand, or just use someone’s neopronouns and move on. Or not reply at all.
That wasn’t my question though. Why are they getting lumped together?
It was more of “being a dick for no reason” than a question, and I’m not an expert.
That said, I’d say because their physical body doesn’t match how they feel on the inside. Which is definitely something trans folks experience.
Okay, I can see the overlap with that last part. Thank you for the perspective.
They are getting lumped together because that’s the context of what OP did. OP has received mod action twice, both times for making directed commentary on the validity of another person’s gender (aka disrespecting).
But yeah, I think curbstickle misread your intent–you are both in the right here there’s just some miscommunication, Hopefully this clarifies. :)
Aren’t species and gender two wildly different things? Or am I misunderstanding the larger context?
Yes, you are missing the larger context, but I appreciate the question. :) The larger context is that the LBZ admin is an older trans woman herself, and knows how the patterns of transphobia play out in online spaces. She recognizes that, whether or not Person X is “genuine” or “valid” in their gender identity, allowing people to scream “Identity X isn’t real” or similar in response to their mere existence is dangerous in that it makes the site worse and more toxic for every “genuine” or “valid” trans person.
Whether or not species and gender are two different things is largely irrelevant here, because we’re simply talking the context of keeping a sane and non-violent space for trans people. Most spaces take a more relaxed approach because they are not made by or for trans people, and that’s totally fine. But Ada, as a trans person, has chosen the more unique method of just blanket-banning any questioning or directed criticism of other users’ gender (which she labels “gatekeeping”) in order to keep the space peaceful and respectful.
And the thing is, whatever you or OP thinks about it, it works. That’s why you’ll see so many people defend Ada. Are there some assholes out there intentionally making a mockery of gender diversity? For sure! But does it help trans people to throw insults and yell about it in their spaces, instead of quietly blocking and reporting? For many, the answer is a resounding no.
Genuinely hope this helps! I get the vibe you are asking these questions with sincerity, so I am putting in the effort for ya here. :)
Thank you, I think I understand what you’re getting at, at least from the perspective of preemptively trying to get ahead of something perceived as threatening to a community as a whole.
I mean, I may not necessarily agree with all aspects of the situation as a whole, but the logic on behalf of the admin actions I think I can put myself in the shoes of.
Ugh I’m so happy to hear that. And glad to help!
And when ‘dogfucker’ is next, it will be insisted that their gender is valid too, because by refusing to acknowledge any definition of the term, you turn gender itself into an empty mockery.
Yes, why do that when you can quietly report and ban anyone who disagrees with the gender of dragonfucker.
You want me to ban Ada?
That’s a power far too great for mere mortals to wield, Dr. Wesker
Okay, but as I noted, I used Drag’s pronouns. I don’t remember ever using the wrong pronouns for Drag, though I’m sure a ‘they’ or the like slipped in in some deeply buried comment.
The issue becomes whether gender has any limits for what it means. I objected to both the fantastic and the species. For that reason, on another instance, in a discussion that did not involve Drag or Blahaj admins, I was banned from a bunch of comms that I hadn’t even commented in in months.
I wasn’t talking about you, I was referring to calling neopronouns “cosplaying”. Its intentionally disrespectful.
You want me to ban myself?
Did you ban yourself? lol
I didn’t say that, but I do think it would be good for you to reconsider your wording, especially considering you admit to not understanding, and then acknowledged later the relation to trans feelings and how the two can be related.
But I’m not a “ban them” kind of guy. I’m more of a “remove their comment and explain” kind of guy.
My comment wasn’t intended to suggest that being trans is a form of gender cosplay, so I apologize if that was how it read.
However, I will stand behind my statement that identifying as a totally different species is indeed pure fantasy that makes no real world sense to me.
I do support it in the same vein that I support all creativity and fun. Furries-- fuck if I understand that, but if no one (or animal) is getting hurt, go wild and have a great time.
That being said, if I was asked by a furry to only refer to them as a dog or cat in all real world scenarios because that’s the species they identify as, I simply cannot pander and think it’s a pretty unreasonable and fantastical expectation.
I’m going to stand behind my statement that you’re being demeaning for no reason then.
Let’s try this. I’m going to just change a few words, and let’s see how this feels to you:
That would be a pretty shitty take considering all we know about being trans, right?
Why does it have to make sense to you for you to not be shitty about it?
Why put so much effort in to be antagonistic rather than just acknowledge and either ignore and move on or refer to others as they’d prefer?
I don’t consider it much different, personally. It doesn’t bother or offend me. It doesnt hurt me to call someone by whatever they want to be called.
What I don’t feel is a need to be hurtful in reference to their feelings.
You can change all the words you want, but that’s not what I said, and I feel it’s insincere to suggest the two statements are equal.
I’m allowed to draw a line and say, “this isn’t my burden to bear, and I don’t have to comply to simply avoid a rocked boat.”
The offensive part to me I suspect is the same thing op finds offensive, which is the expectation that I am to comply with what is clearly someone’s fantasy in all shape and definition.
We know gender identity is fluid and complex. We know sexuality is fluid and complex. The verdict is definitely way out there that species falls into this category, too.
I think its insincere to suggest they aren’t. After all…
These two statements seem to be completely opposed to each other.
Not to mention, that same attitude was held towards trans folks for a long time, wasn’t it? That they couldn’t possibly feel that way, and it was just an expression of homosexuality?
Anyway, I’m off for tonight, enjoy your night.
How do you feel about transracialism?
Isn’t this a common TERF comparison?
Transracialism has way more merit than transpeciesism, though.
I grew up amongst hispanic families, and definitely don’t find it far fetched to identify with a different race, culturally and behaviorally. So I could see it, even though it might be a bit misplaced.
Like, that’s at least based in reality.
Historical or modern?
Or that the modern usage has some scientific basis, and its still being explored?
Short answer - its a subject thats still being explored but has a degree of scientific support, so I see no reason to be mean about it.
Wesker didn’t mention neopronouns, though?
No, just an offhanded comment about them cosplaying.
Would you say that a trans woman was “cosplaying being a woman”?
No, but I’d say anyone who claimed to be a dragon was, at best, cosplaying being a dragon.
On account of dragons not being real, for one.
… OK now youre being a dick for no reason too.
I can’t comprehend it any more than I can being trans, but why not give them basic respect for how they feel, regardless of what you think about it?
Is someone getting physically hurt by using neopronouns or by being respectful toward their feelings?
Are you being hurtful by saying they are cosplaying, in the same way that it would be hurtful to someone who is trans?
Thats kind of the line there dude. Your opinion on their lived experience is irrelevant, regardless of what I may think of it or you may think of it. Maybe they are a troll, maybe not.
Does it really harm you to not be demeaning towards others about it though?
… for asserting people can’t be dragons?
I can comprehend being trans. If I think about myself in a female body, trapped indefinitely, I feel horrified - like I would be alien in my own skin. That horror I feel is only abstract, and nothing compared to what trans people experience, but the principle is clear.
Again. At no point are neopronouns involved in this dispute.
Is it not hurtful to trans folk to equate their identities to someone who wants to play at being a dragon? Or more precisely, a dragonfucker?
Having opinions is demeaning?
That they can’t feel like they are on the inside. Yes.
Principle, but not full comprehension. You logically understand the concepts. You dont fully comprehend it, and neither do I.
Just because I understand more relative to trans folks than I would for others that feel more unique doesn’t mean I can’t extend them the same basic respect and dignity though. If that’s how they feel, thats how they feel.
Other than derogatory comments around them, like “cosplaying” as noted above. Yes.
Ah, so you speak for all trans folks then? Despite not being trans? Your basic understanding of the principles of being trans gives you the keen knowledge and insight to decide how all trans folks should feel relative about what someone else thinks of themselves on the inside?
Right. Cmon man. Youre better than this.
Like most other things in life - it depends on the presentation.
And yeah, I’d say even in this comment chain you’ve been pretty damn demeaning. Obviously my opinion, and to be clear I don’t think you are at all a bad person.
But this, overall - yeah man you’ve got a really shitty take on this one. Its worth you spending time thinking about rather than reacting more, IMO.
💖