- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
A new messaging app is in development, and the project is described as “an open source WhatsApp for the Fediverse.”
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something something 15 competing standards
unfortunately matrix sucks revolt isn’t federated and irc is outdated so
I just learned about Matrix recently. Seems like something that’d be good. What sucks about it?
Besides the main implementation synapse being slow, the new implementation dendrite is unfinished but progressing.
But technical standards aside, the hassle of managing encryption keys is too buggy and confusing IMO. That’ll deter most people I feel.
I want it to be great but it just isn’t there yet.
I personally really like Matrix, but there are a few outstanding complaints about it. The biggest one is that the reference implementation everyone uses by default is known to be bloated and slow, and poor at scaling. Server admins have had a huge challenge of supporting a large amount of data for things like room history, which in the past required propagation to every server hosting every participant. The protocol itself has been described by some developers as overtly complex.
Some of this seems to be improving, particularly with development of a Go-based backend implementation, Dendrite.
And if dendrite fail, we wait for the rust-based backend implementation. :)
It’s funny. When I was typing my original response, I was under the impression that Dendrite was Rust-based! 😂 I’m really glad I checked before posting!
Fun fact. I didn’t made a joke. There is a rust based version in alpha state. But I don’t remember it’s codename.
Edit: okay, it has no codename:
Oh, I thought that was just a client SDK. Is it an actual server backend?
@deadsuperhero
> the reference implementation everyone uses by default is known to be bloated and slow, and poor at scalingThis doesn’t seem to stop the fediverse growing (*cough* Mastodon *cough*).
@deadsuperhero
> development of a Go-based backend implementation, DendriteAlso Rust-based homeserver implementations like Construct and Conduit. Both of which are usable, although missing a few nice-to-have added features. Eg Conduit is still working on;
“E2EE emoji comparison over federation (E2EE chat works)… Outgoing read receipts, typing, presence over federation”
Good to know. I signed up for beeper.com which seems cool. I am a bit concerned about data collection and privacy, so I’m trying to set up my own instance.
I’m not even close to an expert, but from what I have heard, matrix collects quite a bit of metadata depending on the server you are using/federating with.
Yes, it does not protect metadata great. It is visible that you and your interlocutor are talking together and when.
But noone figured out how to prevent that in federated systems. You rather have less metadata in centralized place for everyone or more metadata but only for small subset of people.
@smileyhead
> But noone figured out how to prevent that in federated systemsYou’ve basically got a choice been a centralised service where metadata can be limited but E2EE is mostly pointless (you have to trust the service operators’ E2EE deployment), or a decentralised network where E2EE is reliable, but it’s harder to limit metadata.
Which one is best depends on the situation/ threat model.
Yeah, I have been concerned about that. Looking into self-hosting matrix.
IRC is only “outdated” if you make it so by using outdated networks like libera.chat that refuse to implement the newer standards that have been available for years.
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There is this wierd meme that IRC is “outdated” and XMPP is “dead”, both of which is completely untrue, but somehow the tech-bro hivemind continues to spout this nonsense when ever the topic comes up.
AFAIK the most complained about thing with xmpp is that there are so many standards and every server isn’t guaranteed to implement them. That and just being old which is no curse but people take that as a negative sometimes.
It’s honestly pretty good IMO.
@timbuck2themoon
> there are so many standards and every server isn’t guaranteed to implement themThis is just one of dozens of HX fails that leave XMPP unusable for anyone who isn’t ideologically committed to using it.
(1/2)
#HX = Human eXperience
@timbuck2themoon
Matrix apps are far from perfect, but its dev community at least *care* about improving HX and it shows. In my experience, the XMPP dev community (with a few notable exceptions like the ModernXMPP folks) insist on seeing their HX fails as features not bugs. They expect people to stop expecting 21st century chat apps, and embrace 1990s retro.I’ve used XMPP since then (I’m still [email protected]), and all I can say is, good luck with that.
(2/2)
Thank you, Ive seen this repeatedly and now Ive been better informed.
Feels like Jabber has been around for a long time. If I’m not mistaken I remember my buddy pimping it as an AIM alternative back in the Napster/mp3 days.
XMPP is fantastic, but I feel as though it suffers from half-baked clients, most of which are a decade old and look the part.
I’d really love to see a “modern” WhatsApp-like take on an XMPP messenger, but I haven’t found any. Admittedly, I haven’t looked in some time.
Give it another look. The popular Android client Conversations is getting an UI overhaul right now (unreleased), Monal for iOS has also improved a lot, and this is a promising looking take on a Telegram like UI: https://moxxy.org/
Dino and Gajim also improved a lot on the desktop side. Overall there is some renewed interest by client developers and the Jabber federation is growing again I think.
That’s really great news! I’ll look into those. 😁
@deadsuperhero
> I’d really love to see a “modern” WhatsApp-like take on an XMPP messenger, but I haven’t found anyHave you looked at @snikket_im ?
@deadsuperhero
I agree, I use xmpp all the time, but the clients are really underwhelming… Not sure how it’s so complicated to give them a facelift to update them while keeping the existing functionality. This reminds me of the debates about the #blender ui in the past, where gray beards argued that the interface was just fine…aesthetics matter;)
@poVoqSame with K9. But they did finally a really good facelift.
@Samsy
I’ll need to take a look, I haven’t used k9 in agesIts one of the best apps actually. Swipe gestures, openpgp, material you (?).
Matrix is getting better on fast peace, we need to give it another yew years to fix biggest holes I guess.
ActivityPub based chat is going to suck much. Like basing chat on RSS or FTP, it can be done but why. Unless we’re talking just about replicating Instagram-like DMs then maybeee? But I still would like to just add link to Matrix in bio instead of having chat in yet another place.
Unless we’re talking just about replicating Instagram-like DMs
I think that’s exactly the niche this intends to fill. This is facebook messenger for the fediverse.
Oh boy… Another messenger… Yay…
Nobody is telling you to use it. This originally spun out of development of a messaging app just for Pixelfed, but evolved when the dev realized it could be made to work with any Fediverse account, not just his own server project.
An optimistic view is that it could end up opening the door for end-to-end encryption to come to private messages in Fediverse servers, over time.
I think what @[email protected] is trying to explain is that Mastodon and Lemmy for example may be able to implement Sup as a part of their softwares too. Currently if you try to DM someone on Lemmy, the options are a Matrix redirect, or Private Messages designated as not secured.
Though I do wonder about the viability of this. People would still need to set up with Sup to receive messages, at least as I understand it. As a result, this would run into a similar problem as matrix, just without needing to use a different federated server and login I suppose.
This would also require that project leads for AP softwares would want to accept the service as a part of their distribution, assuming it even is implmented in such a manner.
TL;DR it’s hard to say anything for certain when details seem to be slim.
Yeah, my current guess for how this will work is that users will do an OAuth sign-in dance with their Fedi accounts to a client that is mostly not connected to their personal accounts in any meaningful way, beyond viewing contacts that have also signed in to the client. The client itself could store the encrypted chat, rather than having it reside on any server.
Eventually, we may be far enough along at a point that the ActivityPub protocol could have an enhancement proposal for supporting chat, and apps like Sup could plug into servers in a more native way, where the conversation data lives encrypted on the server.
This is all just conjecture on my part, but it seems like a viable way to work around current network limitations.
With the open nature of the fediverse I actually see some potential here. Right now there isn’t a single messenger that I truly like. They’re all just different shades of okay or worse.
Matrix (element I guess)?
Doesn‘t quite have the userbase at least for me. I‘m only using it for one work contact and that’s it. I also heard from others who use Element a bit more that it’s quite buggy, although I haven’t experienced that myself yet.
I just don’t think that new msging app will have a larger userbase than matrix. I hope I’m wrong tho
Especially considering that they made gitter into a matrix client, and several IRC servers are easily available.
What’s wrong with Signal?
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Desktop app works fine tbh.
Phone numbers required for now. Usernames potentially on the horizon per sms removal update.
Server side code is open source and available at Signal Server Github.
Also available on iOS. Android has an apk download so you dont need Google Play.
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Does XMPP allow e2ee group video calls?
Yes, but its early days and only few clients support it. You can try it with Dino.
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I don’t see the problem with that, it’s a phone messenger first.
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Sure, definitely use what works for you. I do like it as a phone messenger that happens to have a functional desktop client (Telegram and surprisingly, Whatsapp do have better desktop clients).
Signal is great, but the core developer is inherently against federation with his own product. It’s just one giant centralized service.
It feels like I’m doing shady backdoor deals. It’s only for the people I conspire with and really close friends…
In which we just end up using regular old sms anyway lol.
Signal is too darn secure. Much better to have one dude who probably knows how to use a crypto library build the whole thing over again with a coat of ActivityPub on top
I wonder how it’ll compare to Matrix.
I think it’s intended to be more like WhatsApp, in the sense that you use it for one-on-one chats or messaging small friend groups. I don’t think it’s a current goal to try to take on Matrix / Element.
use it for one-on-one chats or messaging small friend groups
Those are exactly what I use Matrix for.
I think it is to just replicate Instagram DMs.
I’m for it, plus I like the name.
What’s Sup?
Nothing much, you?
No, what’s, Sup?
… Just chillen…
Visible anger.
If I ever create my own messaging app, it’ll be called “updog”.
What’s updog?
’Who’s on first’ vibes :-)
Kinda shows how what’s up has evolved over the years
What’s up - WhatsApp sup - Sup
The name makes me think of the Bro app from Silicon Valley
Sup Bro?
Nice CoC!
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Not hot dog
I’m excited for it. I’m hoping it becomes a federated, self-hostable Signal.
It’s way easier to sell friends and family on yet another messager when you tell them “look, it comes with a twitter/facebook/instagram/reddit too!”
Do we if it will have scope to do group chats at all or well?
Seems to me that private group chats are significant piece missing from the fedi, especially as they seem to me to be a reasonable alternative platform structure compared to all the doom scrolling engagement stuff that the Fedi has so far more or less sought to simply clone.
Groups support seems to be coming to pixelfed soon at least
I’m much more excited about Veilid than another server-based thing, even if it’s federated servers. Fully peer-to-peer seems like the way to go for direct conversations.
I’m pretty curious about Veilid, and eager to check it out. But, I believe that peer-to-peer and federated could theoretically complement each other very well, especially when it comes to building infrastructure for this big weird network we’re a part of.
For me, federated networks make a lot of sense when you want moderation and admins. Having a lot of little places with centralized control that can all talk to each other is much preferable to having 5 giant shitty walled gardens.
If I’m going to talk to a friend or a small group of friends directly, then I don’t feel a need to have a centralized authority in the works, which is why I’d prefer peer-to-peer for that kind of communication.
Those are just my preferences though; good luck with the project, and hack on!
This. Maybe something that doesnt want my phone number or require me to sign on from a known device. That shit creeps me out, because I know none of it is necessary.
Actually, for now @[email protected] is working on an activityPub library called #pubkit https://pubkit.net
He’s working on multiple things at once. Where he finds the energy, I don’t know, but PubKit, Sup, and a few other things are all happening right now.
This one article is part of a series where I’m hoping to put up one feature per day of what he’s been working on. Pixelfed is notoriously hard to cover, because the lead dev is so active.
Rename it to soup
WHY ARE YOU SENDING MEMES IN THE SOUP APP?!
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It seems to be based on the existing Pixelfed php code that uses ActivityPub. In theory the Libervia AP gateway would probably make it work with XMPP, but I suspect the use of libsignal will ultimately still prevent it. Maybe once both sides speak MLS it will be possible.
Yeah, admittedly I rushed that part, and should’ve taken more time for details. My biggest guess is that the chat app will just be a client for Fediverse server users to sign into, with all the conversations happening off-server in a client. That’s the only way I could think of this working, with the way that the network currently operates.
In the future, it might be possible for a lot of different Fediverse servers to natively support encrypted chat. But, these are all just guesstimates, and I’m not even sure that the lead dev is ready to publicly comment on a set-in-stone policy. Likely, there’s probably a lot of experimentation happening.
I am torn up 🤷.
On one hand I just want one standard NOW and am sick of hunderds of apps. On the other hand it is just a Pixelfed client with other view, like DeltaChat is to email.
Edit: fix typo
How much is a houndred? Is it more than a dogzon? 😋
