Those are the type of crimes I would give a death penalty exception for.
These are the types of crimes where I don’t think a quick execution is fair
I was thinking of letting the victim’s close ones do what they want to the demons for one day, but I’m not sure what that would do with their psyche afterwards.
E: The psyche of those doing the retribution.I do beleive in restorative justice but I do wonder ocassioanlly if we haven’t gone too far into the concept that vengeance has zero place in justice
Yes, we have.
You should consider joining Isis.
Maybe not, but it is a humane thing to do, and it removes the problem.
Yeah. Torture is fine, so is a simple bullet to the back of the head.
Whichever is a bigger deterrent for these crimes should be enacted.
people don’t commit these crimes with the expectation that they’re going to be caught. I don’t know how serious you are but I find it a little disturbing to condone torture
What do you think would be a more effective deterrent?
Sorry reality disturbs you. Let me know when you think of something better. It looks like these people weren’t deterred by the possible consequences of their actions.
Anything but giving governments the power to torture people.
Alright. That’s not a suggestion, but ok.
Knowing that one’s existence will cease if they commit such crimes should serve as a sufficient deterrent.
It doesn’t, though. There’s no evidence that the death penalty serves any sort of deterrent. It isn’t a punitive measure, it’s vengeance. If you’re ok with vengeance I respect your opinion though I disagree, but we can’t pretend it’s anything but vengeance.
I believe the use of the death penalty in severe cases isn’t driven by vengeance; it’s more about preventing the individual from causing harm to others in the future. It’s important to recognize that not all criminals can be successfully rehabilitated, such as psychopaths or serial killers.
However, if the death penalty were to exist, I believe it should be carried out by the person who pronounces the verdict personally. This would ensure that such a grave decision is not made lightly.
Could you not prevent them from causing additional harm by not killing them? What if you’re wrong? There’s plenty of reason to leave them alive, but only one real reason to kill them, and that reason is vengeance.
What about torturing them?
As a society, we should strive to be better than the people we judge for their crimes. Torturing people is just wrong, cruel, and unnecessary.
I’m sorry you feel that way. Maybe when you get more life experience, you’ll realize that most scumbags will only avoid engaging in heinous acts if the deterrent for doing so is appropriate.
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For some cases there are no doubts and yet mistakes can still happen. This video was a great discussion on the topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L30_hfuZoQ8&t=0
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Look at you go Nazi boi, so tolerant
Bad troll.
I wouldn’t. It’s far more punishing and even that is far too little to throw them in a cell and lose the key. Let them sit there for endless years until they die. Done.
Why are we paying for them to stay alive? Lol.
Life imprisonment is cheaper (in the US) for the taxpayer than execution. Morally, I think the death penalty does not have a leg to stand on. Even in the most egregious cases, who truly has the right to end a life? Can any justice system be 100% accurate? If there is even a slim chance that an innocent could be murdered by the state, the state should not murder. It’s valid to have a visceral reaction to horrific crimes like this, but to advocate for murdering even of a guilty party just doesn’t mesh with at least my ethics
who truly has the right to end a life?
Many who live deserve death. Some who die deserve life: can you give it to them?
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So, it’s not wrong to lock people in a cage?
Lol. The ‘logic’ of the anti-death penalty crowd never ceases to astound me.
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Lol. You don’t understand.
You’re trying to say that “killing people is bad, therefore we shouldn’t kill as a punishment.”
I’m trying to say that “locking people up is bad, therefore we shouldn’t lock people up as a punishment.”
Stop moving the goalposts. Stop saying one punishment is ‘better than another’ while trying to say hurting someone is bad.
If you, as an free person lock someone up, you’re in the wrong. Just as if you, as free person kill someone, it is bad.
Stop. You’re not fooling anyone but yourself and who wants to be fooled. Some people need to die.
That visceral reaction is exactly why victims or their families can’t have input. Of course you’d want them to be punished, of course you’d want it to be cruel and unusual.
While I agree the State shouldn’t kill, if someone decided not to spend those millions of dollars and instead took these bastards behind the jail and put a $0.15 bullet in each of their skulls I wouldn’t be angry.
You say that now, but what about death penalties in Sudan? Iran? China? Are western executions more moral? What is the purpose? Revenge? Deterrence? The death penalty in the real world disproportionally affects minority and disadvantaged populations. It is not a deterrent to crime, and there is truly no humane way to end a person’s life. What of the executioner’s psyche? What of the innocent family of the condemned? There are so many terrible consequences.
As tired and trite as it is, “an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind” applies and is true. The death penalty only continues the cycle of violence.
edit: I missed your point 😅 I still can’t condone violence in any capacity
This would be so much easier if someone could write their names in a notebook, and somehow kill them of a heart attack as a result of it.
Add a dude eating chips, another dude eating a cupcake, pad it out with 11 hours of nothing at all happening and you’ve got a hit on your hands somehow
To be fair, he ate chips with a neat soundtrack and flashy cuts. Whooooah.
You know, in political theory the entire conceptual basis of the state is that the state is the has the sole monopoly on violence. That’s it, that’s what the state is. It is the sole purveyor of social norms and order by using violence as a tool of enforcement.
You know, in political theory the entire conceptual basis of the state is that the state is the has the sole monopoly on violence.
No it isn’t. What fucking theory are you reading to come up with this bullshit?
It doesn’t need to be more expensive to execute someone than to house them.
To punish them lol
Looks like we’re punishing ourselves, lol.
Every dollar wasted on keeping them locked up could be better just about anywhere else in society.
It isn’t clear to me if execution is actually cheaper or not. And the 8th amendment effectively bans the simple methods of killing. It needs to be sterile and mostly painless for most people.
Would I like to make an exception for pedophiles, where we castrate them, physically and chemically? Yes. But we’ve agreed as a society that we won’t dole out cruel punishments as a cost for ensuring our government stays in check. I generally prefer lifetime imprisonment without parole for two reasons.
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There were a lot of executions where, when we went back to look at them with newer technology for DNA evidence, we realized the accused was actually innocent, and the criminal got away. You can imagine there was a racial component as well which meant death sentences were assigned more often to non white people than white people. It would be hubris for us to think that our systems are perfect now. Another technological development in the future could exonerate people we think are definitely guilty. I don’t want any more innocent people to die where we realize their innocence too late.
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Being locked up for life sounds like a fate worse than depth, especially if it’s solitary confinement. Let them rot and go and insane.
If life-imprisonment is a fate worse than death (most prisoners disagree, that’s why it’s common to plea a death sentence down to a life-sentence), then doesn’t this mean that it is preferable to erroneously execute innocent people rather than give them life-imprisonment?
Your second point really severely undermines your first argument.
No, because life imprisonment has the possibility of exoneration and freedom.
Only if additional evidence emerges. Innocent people are still going to face life imprisonment, and the argument is that it’s better to execute people than life imprisonment.
Even then this is extremely subjective, many people who have never been imprisoned or faced imminent death think that they would prefer execution, and somehow generalise this feeling to all people when in reality very few people choose execution when given the option.
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I prefer a 3m steel cube, welded shut, with a poop hole, a human-sized gerbil spout for water, and a hole for gruel to be pumped in twice a day. No clothes, bedding, or even a bowl for the gruel.
Not for nothing, but in the US, the pedophiles that end up in the prison system are very likely to experience hell on earth as the other inmates will certainly not be a fan of theirs. It’s like some criminal pecking order. I have no idea if that’s a thing outside the US, but maybe…
Even murderers have families and kids, and then there’s the whole non violent offender population.
This is almost certainly a myth. Prisons are full of rapists and pedophiles, nobody cares. The only actual code of ethics criminal organisations have is no snitching or defrauding because it hurts them, that’s all they care about.
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If a claim is made that anecdotal evidence is incorrect then presenting anecdotal evidence does not refute that claim. Even worse your sources basically say that it’s not really a big deal, because it isn’t. Criminals really don’t care what you have done so long as you don’t hurt them.
Yes, and you have presented a giant pile of conjecture, followed it up with a bunch of judgment, and then made a major effort to let us know how much insight you have, without actually providing any insight. Way to go, Jasory!
Even a bit of personal experience goes further than a pile of conjecture spewed from an internet “know it all.”
On what basis do you determine that my claims are not sourced? You have no information that my claims are less credible than those of the interview subjects. They are both unsupported and anecdotal at the worst; however you can actually find information on prison socialisation in academic papers and they largely support my claims. Swindlers are treated worse than sex offenders because this idea of moral code among criminals doesn’t really exist, they only care if you harm them directly.
“Made a major effort to know how much insight you have”
Where? Do you even understand what this sentence you wrote even means? Until this reply, I never claimed having a source of insight or argued for why my statement is correct. I merely made a statement that the common notion of “honor among thieves” doesn’t really exist, and personal stories aren’t sufficient to prove that it does. I do have personal experience with this, so technically my claims have just as much basis as the random people interviewed. However this is irrelevant because there are better sources than personal stories.
Additionally if you think that anything in this discussion is a “major effort”, you have abysmally low standards. Writing one or two paragraphs is highly trivial.
You made a profound statement, almost of fact. “This is almost certainly a myth”. This is your argument statement, it’s your conjecture and your major effort to show the audience your insight.
Stop back peddling.
You presented no sources of any kind, and then you started turning things into a research paper where I needed to submit my work in MLA format for the professor. I gave you people’s experiences; you replied with a mouth full of shit (conjecture) with no basis of any kind other than your claimed philosophical knowledge.
No, sir, you seem to have a very, very high opinion of your intelligence. You are also very insecure with this opinion. Just one glance at your social history shows how hard you try to let everyone know how much higher your intellect is than theirs. It’s problematic when you spout unfounded conjecture as fact; it’s worse when you believe the bullshit coming out of your shit box.
I don’t give two fucks how many papers on thieves you have written, or what your criteria are for the conversation because the first two sentences out of your mouth are pure elitist garbage. Go back to your hole of correcting the internet Jasory, I have no time for your bullshit.
Not enough. Too easy. I prefer to give this people years of torture under constant medical control
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No its just a fucking horrible crime. I still dont agree a death sentence should exist.
I’ve been talking to people against the death penalty for awhile now, and they almost always make exceptions for child rapists.
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Yeah, I know.
In what fuckin universe does that even make sense. How dull does the mind have to be to justify this? I couldn’t chop an arm off of someone I hate, let alone a kid. Let alone all the other insert word to describe this horror.
Stuff like this will become common if BJP wins 2024 election. oh wait it is already starting to
https://www.onmanorama.com/news/india/2023/09/02/tribal-woman-paraded-naked-rajasthan-husband.html
I’m not too familiar with India’s politics, but what does the BJP have to do with this incident? And how will changing parties solve these issues - is there any political party in India that’s actually good and not corrupt? I heard corruption is pretty common across all of the government sector, regardless of the party in power?
Everything. They incite violence using the fragility of our enviornment. They fund terrorists like RSS and VHP to supress minorities and make the environment more patriarchal according to hindu scriptures. some parties are corrupt but BJP is the most corrupt and it is trying to increase it more because more corruption = more hindu extreamism = more votes.
Congress is corrupt, but they’re just corrupt, they don’t care about much beyond self-enrichment.
The BJP is MAGA on crack with 500x as much religious zealotry pitched in.
Muslim genocide isn’t that outrageous to them, there were several instances where they rallied to butcher Muslims in the past.
And to make things worse, the religious conflicts are also political conflicts, because of the Muslim-majority parts of India eventually splitting into Pakistan and later Bangladesh. As a result, nationalist Indians want all Muslims to be deported to either of those places, as they consider them fundamentally incompatible with the national faith and culture, which for them are one thing and the same.
Let’s be honest, they want them deported “for now”.
Later it’ll turn back into needing those lands back for “Greater Bharat(India)!!”.
Ultranationalists are never original.
Yep, both sides-ing is a terrible argument, and it becomes clear when you see the difference in these things. Capitalism is terrible, capitalism boosted by bigotry is a whole another evil
wtf has this got to with the ruling party?! you think rapes will stop happening if your favorite party came to power?!
Chup be modi ke lodu
Some cultures are literal garbage but the thought of it makes you go into seizure so keep asking dumb questions
Some cultural elements are garbage, like those focusing on honor to the degree of honor killings.
But what culture is pushing gang rape?
The fact you’re confused shows us how innocent you are to the world around you.
- I’m not confused. I’m horrified. There’s nothing unclear about this article. You seem to have trouble with text comprehension.
- Luckily, the world around me is not filled with such filth. I can afford to be mortified.
In what fuckin universe does that even make sense.
I’m not confused.
You seem to have trouble with text comprehension.
Okay.
For the sake of my sanity, I’m not going to read that article. The headline is bad enough. Utterly beyond comprehension.
Yeah, I’m not against this article being written, but I want a filter so I don’t have the mental image I now have.
I want a reality filter that will stop this shit from actually happening.
Agreed.
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reads headline
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Thinks “India?”
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It’s India…
It’s always India…
Its sad 😔
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Ever heard of reporting bias?
Yes.
I also understand that if you here specific shit always coming from a specific place that it’s a smoke and fire situation.
Add to that all too many personal experiences where my wife and I had issues with Indians (from India) and yeah, it has led me to believe that something is seriously wrong with their culture. It has nothing to do with race or racism, they have a beautiful culture, but a number of parts of their culture are seriously fucked up and must be changed
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What a terrible day to be able to read.
And in english not less.
I’m earnestly asking any Indian folks why I’ve seen too many articles like this coming out of India. Why is it so unsafe for women in that country? Sexism? Regressive beliefs around sex?
Whatever country you are from, think about the most backwards/rural/remote location that has people with backwards and regressive views.
Consider that India likely has 5 to 10x the population of rural folks in small villages that have midevil views compared to your country.
Add in long standing cultural misogynist views that is so pervasive it fully permeates all aspects of government and life and you quickly get to a point where abuse and domestic violence is tolerated.
As per usual, it’s not like the entire country shares these views. It’s just the the number of backwards views in India is numerically huge because of its population.
That’s really more like high evil in my opinion.
Florida and Texas.
All countries have their Floridas and Texases. What’s yours?
Canada has Alberta.
Florida and Texas
The south
Widespread gun ownership, please. Gun ownership, not knife ownership.
Honestly, I don’t know. But then again I never felt like I belong here for as long as I can remember.
Places like Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan are so regressive that other Indians collectively call them BIMARU (sick or unwell).
This saddens me deeply.
It’s important to remember what a big place it is. A billion people. A lot can happen. And it may not be some essential quality of the entire country. I mean hell you can’t judge all of America by Mississippi.
That makes sense, it could just be a numbers game. I’m sure similar atrocities have happened in the states.
I don’t know about this kind of maiming women but there are definitely moments when I see Europeans, for example, ask “why is America so fucked up?” after they learn about something that went down in Missouri.
What the fuck is wrong with these people? What has to be going through your head to even think about doing this?
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luckily there is a group like this in india. They are called Gulabi (pink) Gang.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28WO-0U5Gts&ab_channel=JourneymanPictures
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Good bot
That sounds like a good idea until you remember that women are just as capable as men of being lying psychopaths.
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That now makes me wonder what the distribution of psychopathy is over sex.
I assume they’re independent and we’d have a “50:50” distribution.
Not interested enough to actually go and find out though.
Psychopaths exist across cultures and ethnic groups and at an estimated frequency of about 1 percent of the population for males and 0.3–0.7 percent for females. Some researchers challenge these numbers, citing bias toward male manifestations in diagnostic instruments and methods.
Source: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201906/why-female-psychopaths-are-different-breed
TYVM!
Until the 2000s, most research on psychopathy used male participants, assuming that the findings would transfer to females.
Clinicians generally don’t expect females to be psychopaths, so they might [dis]miss key signs.
Figures.
From what I read psychopaths may manifest differently in women so a lot of them may go undiagnosed
Sir, your wife is hysterical. As your doctor I prescribe medical vaginal stimulation.
We’ve had a long history of just dismissing problems women suffer.
And with psychiatry it’s really easy to dismiss mental illness as moral or character failings. I always thought I was a lazy piece of shit but I learned I have clinical depression and ADD.
Hey! One can have clinic depression and ADHD and also be a lazy piece of shit. Don’t tell me what I can’t be!
So we will only allow half the females to kill rapists? Is that how statistics works?
Just give them guns. I mean, guns are primitive by today’s measure to manufacture. A sufficient in scale production would make them cheap.
Though arming everybody in India would mean at least one gun for every teen and adult in 1.4bln population, and also ammo.
I’ll allow it. After 900,000 years of being raped the males really do have it coming.
Homo sapiens have only existed as a species for about 300k years, and that’s probably the least of several things wrong with your statement.
I was using the greater definition of humans, which includes our ancestors species. They were still human beings, but not homo sapiens.
"Early humans first migrated out of Africa into Asia probably between 2 million and 1.8 million years ago. They entered Europe somewhat later, between 1.5 million and 1 million years. "
Per the Smithsonian https://humanorigins.si.edu/education/introduction-human-evolution#:~:text=Humans first evolved in Africa,ago come entirely from Africa.
Hominids but not humans. Not the same species. Might as well be talking about chimpanzees.
Yeah. Unfortunately a lot of women find ways to justify their abuse or even worse, get off on it.
So long as we breed for greed, the default for humanity is going to be a shitbag.
It sounds like you may have read somewhere that rape victims sometimes reenact their rape with their partners and concluded that therefore they must like being raped.
You couldn’t be further from the truth.
For your information, they don’t do it because they enjoyed their rape so much, they do it because it helps them work through what happened to them with a partner they trust and where they have complete control over the situation and the outcome unlike what happened to them prior.
Lol, what? You literally just assumed something, then argued against it as though it was fact.
Well, you’re wrong on the first one. I don’t think the rest of your explanation is relevant.
And the award for the stupidest comment of the week goes to…
Got anything substantive to say?
What a terrible day to have eyes
From actually reading the piece, this headline is wrong. It should read “Gang-raped 14 year old was burned alive then cut to pieces”
Which actually makes more sense
For transparency, it says that she was alive when she was burned, and the body was recovered from more than one location and this made the investigation harder.
So I have then concluded that she was burned alive and then cut to pieces, rather than cut to pieces alive and then burned.
Glad we cleared that up.
isn’t that worse? i heard being burnt hurts more than being cut.
Yeah, it’s supposed to be the worst pain
It’s not. Drowning is way worse. When you burn (I’m sure it’s insanely awful at first) your nerve endings are destroyed fairly quickly and that stops pain. I’m not saying burning alive isn’t horrific, but pain wise drowning is worse.
I dunno why, but I’ve never imagined drowning as being painful before
Yeah it’s not intuitive. I forget the details but it’s supposed to be excruciating
Drowning is pretty peaceful, I know people who died by drowning and were later resuscitated. They said after the first breath it was bliss
-DOUBT-
Try snorting a spoonful of water into your and tell us how it feels
That is so extreme with how messed up it is.
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Look at the flithy faces of perpetrators. these are the filthy people who did it. may they rot in jail. also fuck BJP
Put each in a 5x5 cell with a light that never goes out. No human contact, just them alone with their thoughts for the rest of their miserable lives.
Minimal food and water supply so they are kept barely alive. Every few hours piss in their cells.
Who pays for that? Seems like a waste of money.
Lol, read that headline again and tell me you’re concerned about the cost. The death penalty literally costs more than life imprisonment in the United States. What would be your lower cost alternative?
It’s not recommended to give any attention to perpetrators, that’s what they desire.
I’d be cool with a cheap execution.
I think China would shoot people like these twice in the chest, once in the head, and then bill the family for the ammo.
Oh lad, calm down with the racism against Indians
but i am also indian .
he’s just fascist, check the post history
oh damn…
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These people are monsters indeed.
However, if you want to be part of civil society, you have to do things right. These asswipes deserve a judge and jury too and will then spend probably the rest of their lives in jail.
You can’t have it both ways.
Don’t waste taxpayers money, resources on them. They simply don’t deserve to live for “rest of their lives in jail”
Of you want to love in a civilized society you don’t want to do that. Let them sit in jail for the rest of their lives that’s fine.
What if you get the wrong person? Yes the perpetrator deserves terrible things, but in order to find and get the right people, we need to go about it in a systematic way. Locking people in jail rather than killing them has the benefit of allowing us to free them should they be exonerated and someone else caught.
It’s not about what’s deserved, it’s about what will lead to the best outcome. Retribution doesn’t necessarily solve problems.
Tortured for the rest of their life, not just sitting in a shitty room.
Sitting in a shitty room and not being able to go outside is torture enough for most. Remember how we all went a bit wonky in the head during lockdown? Like that, but for a lifetime.
Lockdown was nothing for me.
It was normal, no change.
Good for you! I used to live in a flatshare, so I had a bigger bubble than most and that helped
Unfortunately a judge and jury leaves wiggle room for bribes to be paid and rich guilty people to be let free.
Gelding is the answer and women should be the ones doing the gelding.
So in other words, you don’t want s civil society, you want anarchy with vendettas and vigilantes because there is no way that could go wrong. There is no way that anyone would abuse that, and no way that anyone innocent would become victim of your system, right? RIGHT?
A civil society doesn’t let women be gang raped, cooked alive then chopped into pieces.
I’m suggesting that maybe they need gangs of women doling out the same kind of attacks on the men that roam around attacking women. It might make men think twice about attacks.
This is not a good thing to do but in the face of a society that seems to care very little about justice for women, it doesn’t really seem crazy.
Well, not entirely. A civil society will try to educate people to not commit criminal acts. It will punish criminal acts. It can’t, however, stop criminal acts with 100% accuracy. No system can. Neither can your “ideas”
What you propose though is just have groups of women go out and straight up murder random innocent men. That doesn’t sound great, it sounds terrible. It has nothing to do with justice, it’s purely about revenge.
Now I’ll happily agree that Indian societal culture is fucked up badly. Castes and treatment of women are just two of the issues and anytime gang rapes come up, you know it’s India or Hindus and that really shows it’s a cultural issue. My wife and I also have multiple personal experiences with Indians (Muslims too, btw) where it’s always them causing any issues.
So having said all that: I think the solution lies in restructuring their cultures. Their boys need to be taught what is right and wrong and right now they’re being taught the wrong thing. I know from personal experience that in a number of countries Muslim boys are taught that western women are whores and that you can do pretty much anything you like to them, as long as you make sure you don’t get caught. I imagine boys in indea having a somewhat similar teaching. THAT is what need to change, but seeing as widespread as it is, good luck with that.
It reminds me of this travel show video where two blonde girls had to go to some village in India and when they arrived there were hundreds of men waiting for them, pushing them, taking forced selfies with them, until they ran off back in the train and left. It was fucking creepy.
Change the culture, don’t assault random innocent men.
I agree with what you are saying but I didn’t ever say to attack random innocent men. I said groups of women should attack the men that attack and rape lone women. It’s not like these type of men only ever attack one woman, they are likely repeat offenders known to the community but possibly protected by money, class or connections and should be dealt with illegally as there is no legal justice that can deal with them.
And how do you propose they identify these men?
You do understand that we ha r a system set up for this already in every country? It’s called the justice system? They are supposed to have rules for this. If that isn’t working then adjust that system.
Having vigilantes roam the street is a recipe for disaster that guaranteed will end with a lot of innocent victims because lynchings always end up with innocent victims
Random acts of violence aren’t prevented by more random acts of violence. All it does is increasingly normalise it.
It’s offensive to the animals to be comparing them to humans. No non-human animal would have been this cruel.
Have you ever sat around and watched ducks?
Bastards, I tell ya.
I’ve seen the female mallard with half of her feathers removed, floating face down in the water dead, all while the males continue to gang rape her for hours.
Maybe we should compare people like this to ducks.
Assuming that’s exactly what you saw, at best you can compare it to necrophilia, not being burned alive in a furnace.
Oh no no no. She was very much alive when they started.
I heard the horror from my bedroom window. See, I had a creek in my back yard, and across from that creek was the only stretch of land that wasn’t a mountain. It wasn’t a big stretch either.
I looked out the window and I seen her running in absolute horror, “QUACK! QUACK! QUACK!” They got her three at a time, sometimes more. They started with the feathers on the back of her neck. She was running around with a bloodied, naked, neck. Then they held her down and started ripping feathers from everywhere. She ran for the water and tried to swim away. One by one they held her head under water while another climbed on her back holding her by the skin of her bleeding neck. Feathers flew. She’d get her head up to quack a quack of terror, and they’d dip her back in.
It wasn’t long until she was floating with her face in the water. The rape went on for hours after that.
Can’t proofread, have toddlers.
Have a good night.
Now its your duty to put down those other bastard ducks. String them up from the lamppost as a warning to the other bastard ducks who live nearby.
What the actual fuck
Brutal and horrific story involving pedophilia, gang rape, and a follow-up atrocity? If your first guess was India, you are correct.
more specifically its from the bimaru states , which is basically american south but india.
