Democracy at work.
Fucking scary how quickly people are willing to denounce a protest, just because it causes slight inconvenience for the everyday citizen. THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT! We’re so addicted to convenience, and the only way people will wake up from their consumption-hypnosis, is through forced inconvenience.
Nah, bro, protest all you want but far away from everyone, where no one can see you /s
I honestly believe blocking roads the most effective way to protest in today’s society.
It’s one of the few ways that’s dreamed “illegal” to protest. And most governments will do anything in it’s power to clear the roads, including imprison people.
People need to realize that being late to work doesn’t actually matter, but the state of the climate does. We need more road blocks. Some without people too, just barricades.
The protests are pretty good and everything imo, but what needs to happen is burning down oil refineries or violence against CEOs and billionaires tbh. Nothing is going to change as long as the line continues to go up for the investor class
Amen.
People also need to realize that you’re not just making people late to work by blocking roads. There are people going to receive medical care, emergency services, picking up their children, buying food, and otherwise providing for their families. I’m not saying these problems don’t need attention, but please find another way.
This blockade isn’t preventing any of that, there are small diversions. A mild inconvenience at worst.
Roads are regularly closed for events (which do not enjoy constitutional protection as a human right, as protests do) and roadworks.
Finally the other ways are being done. There was a simultaneous protest on a field nearby. There are regular marches, die-ins, sit-ins - you name it, it’s being done.
It is customary to allow emergency services to pass through blockades. But for other people, interrupting the economy is literally the point. The economy is destroying the means of habitability of this planet.
You can make arguments like this for all forms of protests and the planet continues to burn.
What is an acceptable level of protest? Joining r/climatechange and upvoting the circle jerk?
What are you suggesting? That people find a way that doesn’t impact anything in any way and can easily be ignored? And today’s climate protests are easily the most non-violent protests the West has seen in a long time.
I’m not opposed to more active protest, but I don’t think drivers in the Netherlands are a good target.
Considering the Netherlands is the poster child for how to run a transportation system on Not Just Bikes, I think they are barking up the wrong tree. In places like the US, blocking roads will just cause more emissions from all the idling vehicles. I live in the US and can say with confidence that it wouldn’t change much.
US transportation reform is a whole other thing. It will take at least a decade to undo all of our car dependency even with a large effort. The best the we can immediately do in the US is encourage telework, 4 day work weeks or longer and fewer shifts, and peer pressure people into not driving canyoneros and monster trucks unless they frequently drive off road or on dirt roads.
As far as the Dutch fossil fuel usage goes, since Europe has usable rail system, maybe protest air travel?
My suggestion is go for the biggest and most immediate bang for buck so to speak. Beef production is one of the worst contributors and the easiest to change. It is also generally more expensive than other proteins. Maybe start slipping leaflets into the beef sections of stores showing the staggering difference in GHG emissions AND cost. It can have immediate results too! We can collectively eat less beef right now.
A protest that isn’t inconveniencing anybody isn’t a protest
being late to work doesn’t actually matter
Tell that to the employers and parole officers. Being late to work matters quite a lot to a lot of people who are already disenfranchised.
We can blame a cruel criminal justice system, or we can say that the price is worth it. Maybe it is, just don’t pretend that there aren’t consequences.
Only retort is that it’s potentially dangerous.
Only because of all the cars, which is part of what they’re protesting against.
Obviously?
You just posted “the cars are the dangerous thing on the road” as if I needed to read that?
I saw a video of this and these police are firing the water cannons at children and families, which is just horrible.
Maybe don’t bring your childeren to walk on a highway. There are plenty of other ways to effectively protest
Name some
Well, for starters, walking on a highway without your children.
Who are you, that is so wise in the ways of science?
Any way that EpicGamer can conveniently ignore, obviously.
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“The powers I am protesting against are not happy and use violence against me and my children”
=> “Just stop annoying them, duh!”
It’s the mayor’s choice to mass arrest people and send in water cannons. He could have facilitated the protes, in fact the the government is by law obligated to attempt to facilitate protests in the way the protestors intend to have them.
It’s telling that the prosecutor doesn’t even attempt to charge those arrested - they write on their own website that judges have ruled these protests to be peaceful and orderly.
C A R B R A I N
Be aware that street blockade are not, as a rule, categorically excluded as a valid way of protesting and that this stretch to road is not in fact a highway - a sign says a much and the speed limit is 50km/h. There are traffic lights at both ends and detours are just a few 100 meters.
Furthermore the public prosecutor doesn’t charge the protestors because judges have ruled repeatedly that these are peaceful and orderly protests and hence people are acquitted or not sentenced.
Dutchie here, It’s the A12. It is an highway. A very important one even.
I’ve never seen a traffic light on the a12, except where it becomes an N road. Do you have a pin where I can see this location of yours?
I think this (blocking a highway) is stupid and very dangerous. It will end badly. It has nothing to do with the right to protest. They are creating a dangerous situation and put other people’s safety at risk. Protest at a city center. Blockade an airport entrance. But don’t jump into traffic to make a point.
Furthermore the past few times they did this enough people where convicted and got 60 hours of social work/jail time. This time there where a lot of underage people and I think that is an important factor of the"no prosecutions" thing.
This is the tunnelbak where the main protests are. The speed limit is actually 70 km/h as shown by the sign visible in the street view. It is about 500 meters from where the A12 ends at the corner of the Malieveld.
I think it is unfair to describe “holding a pre-announced protest” as “jumping into traffic”. I imagine they take care to do it safely.
I think it should also be noted that the road is located directly between parliament and the ministry of economic affairs and climate.
Thanks for correcting on the 70/h bit, wasn’t aware.
Location is Utrechtsebaan right between Parliament and the Ministry for Economic Affairs and Climate.
People don’t just jump in traffic. The municipality makes sure traffic is diverted, just like other protests or events.
No people were charged for the protest itself (art 11 WOM). The community service convictions were for incitement. A small handful of people get charged with vandalism (usually placing stickers or such), resisting arrest, etc.
The prosecution office has a FAQ on why people aren’t getting charged for the blockade itself, it explains that judges won’t convict (as I mentioned): https://www.om.nl/actueel/nieuws/2023/05/28/waarom-de-meeste-a12-activisten-niet-worden-vervolgd
And of course it has to do with the right to protest. It is a protest. The mass arrests are under protest law, not criminal law. The prosecutor doesn’t charge because it’s a peaceful protest.
From your description I wonder if your conception of the protest matches what’s happening there - that notion of jumping into traffic on an actual highway. That’s not what’s happening now.
From my understanding, your transportation infrastructure is world class. There is a reason the Not Just Bikes guy uses it to show transportation done right.
I think they are barking up the wrong tree doing this in the Netherlands. As far as blocking traffic to protest cars, take a page out of the CIA sabotage manual. Perhaps hand out leaflets near the entrances and drive in a legal manner that causes traffic jams around where transportation planners work. Driving under the speed limit, waiting when lights turn, etc. There is no crime committed, but it has the same effect and targets those with the power to make changes.
The thumbnail makes it look like a fun water party.
It only depends on the side of the canon.
Police said that they’re fine that they’re protesting the system, but that they wish it didn’t involve them having to act. They don’t realize that they’re part of the system…
if i was dutch police, I wouldn’t have done that. It seems Squack.y
Most Dutch people don’t like what these activists are doing.
It’s a beautiful day in September and they are blocking access to one of our biggest cities and one of the most beloved beaches.and creating huge traffic jams due to that.
It’s quite likely that our Parliament will pass a law similar to the UK to criminalize the blocking of infrastructure.
Right, because 30°C in the middle of September is totally normal and in no way an indication that climate change is about to get completely out for control.
Let’s just go to the beach, everything is fine and we don’t have to change anything, let alone something that will inconvenience us.
Temperatures in September are already past 1,5 degree increase. We need to do something. Now.
Can I ask what your solution is?
pretty sure the Dutch don’t have enough time left to not be underwater.
Not turning the public against climate action, for one. We still need political majorities if you want to get anything done.
Second, we had the solution in the 90s with nuclear power. Now it’s inevitable that we will see 2,5-3 degrees warming, since renewables can’t replace reliable sources of energy and the world isn’t willing to de-industrialize. By not excluding nuclear power, net zero by 2050 is achievable. By excluding it, net zero will never be achieved.
We might de-industrialize our country, but industry will just move to countries that do have reliable energy infrastructure. Look at industry moving from Germany to the USA, for example.
If they don’t like being inconvenienced for a couple of minutes, wait till they hear about the climate crisis!
Oh so instead of decisive action on the climate crisis, they’ll just criminalize climate activism. Democracy at work. Noted.
Tyranny of the majority.
I mean, if people stop having kids you solve two problems so we are really on the right path already.
That’s quite the statement. Support for XR is growing with every protest. So “most Dutch”? I wouldn’t be so sure about that…
Protests are allowed and expected to cause inconvenience, protestors are under no obligation to minimise inconvenience, and inconvenience is not legal ground for a mayor to limit or ban a protest.
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Good, that will stop the planet from burning, right?
Most Dutch people don’t like what these activists are doing.
Source?
blocking access to one of our biggest cities and one of the most beloved beaches
Yeah because the only way to get to Scheveningen is to take that small piece of highway? How about any of the other ways leading into or around The Hague? They aren’t blocking access to The Hague or Scheveningen, there isn’t one singular road in or out.
It’s quite likely that our Parliament will pass a law similar to the UK to criminalize the blocking of infrastructure.
Source?
Don’t pretend to speak for the rest of our country because you obviously don’t and don’t dramatize the blockage of a small section of ‘highway’ in the middle of a city as being a blockage of access to the entire city.
Source: Dutch news.
80% of people disagree with this action.
Don’t be so confidently incorrect, it only proves how out of touch you are.
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I would have to imagine there is some selection bias for RTL nieuws. These numbers would probably look different if the NOS or EenVandaag did the survey.
Most of the time, they use the same Ipsos panels. But yes, I agree that RTL is less reliable than NOS. It’s also about spin.
NOS reported that Parliament is considering jail time for disrupting infrastructure and that the UK already has it. Amnesty was against, but a political majority is quite likely.
Source: am Dutch too. Can confirm. Listen to your own advice, you too are not talking for all of us.
Ook jij spreekt niet voor ons allemaal. Als dat zo was dan stonden er wel meer mensen op dat stuk weg, dan had die politie je niet weg gespoten.
Dit is niet de manier. Dit is gevaarlijk en dom.
I know I don’t speak for everyone, that’s why you didn’t find a single opinion or generalization in my comment ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But if you want my opinion I think this is exactly the way they should be protesting right now. High visibility, on ‘the doorstep’ of the governmental buildings, non violent (unlike some other protests we’ve had lately by other groups) and only inconveniencing others.
Mmmm tasty tasty boot
i’m a squid. i live in the sea.
@[email protected] Thought you’d be interested in this story: dutch folks were protesting fossil fuel subsidies and got water cannoned. All of this fossil fuel subsidy money could build out carbon free energy generation and transmission.
Yeah, the level of state investment and subsidy in fossil fuel is absolutely ludicrous. If all of the money spent on subsidising fossil fuels was instead put into investment of renewables, that would DOUBLE the investments on renewables. It wouldn’t double the subsidy, it would double TOTAL SPENDING.
That is absolutely eye-watering to me.
If they want to keep fuel prices low, the best thing to do would be to nationalise all corporations in the fossilfuel industry - with a symbolic payment of $0.01 per share or something like that - and run them to completely forego profit and to put those companies intentionally into decline.
video of this is here
This what police do. Being a cop is being a class traitor, it’s choosing to be a tool of oppression.
Even if that isn’t the cop’s goal when joining the police force, oppression is what they are consenting to. ACAB isn’t just a buzzword. It’s the reaction to the reality of that job. No cop is a good cop.
Amen.
aljazeera link? i’m sure there are better sources
Aljazeera is pretty good as long as it’s not reporting on middle east affairs or Kuwait itself.
Qatar actually. I make this mistake too.
And the BBC is good? If you have a good idea of a mainstream medium’s biases, you’ll be fine. Al Jazeera will have an obvious bias in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Palestine. If they don’t have a beef with a country, they’ll be fairly critical and well informed.
Both the BBC and Al Jazeera are reputable.
If I recall correctly Al Jazeera is even that bad in the middle east and even about Qatar itself, UNLESS you are in Qatar and reading/watching/listening to them in Arabic. Don’t quote me on that last part though.
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Nobody got hurt.
Pretty sure a lot of people died in the last heatwave. But they don’t matter because they’re probably old and disabled. Noted.
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Approximately 600,000 people die each year from extreme heat, while 4.5 million die from extreme cold. If your concern is protecting human life, getting cheap energy to people is currently far more pressing an issue today.
That’s a self-reinforcing argument though. As climate change gets worse because of use of “cheap” energy from fossil fuels, temperatures and weather events will get more extreme. Which then can be used as justification to continue using those energy sources to cope short-term with the damage they exacerbate long-term.
Also, note that renewables are way cheaper than fossil energy sources. If they are available of course. Available as in “built and working”. Even with storage costs factored in they are cheaper.
That’s not even worth a dignified response.
You mean the extreme heat and extreme cold caused by the Changing of the Climate?
Everyone was arrested in this case. A judge ruled the use of ‘burgerlijke verplaatsing’ which you describe as unlawful here after the Zuidas action. Now when they put people in buses, a prosecutor comes into the bus, formally arrests everyone, and then formally releases them pending further investigation.
I think it’s a farcical ‘arrest’ and completely goes against the judge’s verdict but that’s how it happens now.
