I discovered yesterday evening that Lemmy.ml is blocking all inbound ActivityPub requests from /kbin instances. Specifically, a 403 ‘access denied’ is returned when the user agent contains “kbinBot” anywhere in the string. This has been causing a cascade of failures with federation for many server owners, flooding the message queue with transport errors.
This doesn’t appear to be a mistake; it has been done very deliberately, only on Lemmy.ml. Lemmy.world and other large instances do not exhibit the same behavior. It also isn’t a side effect of the bug introduced in Lemmy 0.18. You can observe by sending the following in a terminal
> curl -I --user-agent "kbinBot v0.1" https://lemmy.world/u/test
HTTP/2 200
[...]
> curl -I --user-agent "kbinBot v0.1" https://lemmy.ml/u/test
HTTP/2 403
[...]
> curl -I --user-agent "notKbinBot v0.1" https://lemmy.ml/u/test
HTTP/2 403
[...]
> curl -I --user-agent "placeholder-user-agent" https://lemmy.ml/u/test
HTTP/2 200
[...]
Additional evidence of this not being a Lemmy 0.18 bug:
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This occurs when making web requests to any location on the Lemmy.ml webserver, not just ActivityPub endpoints.
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Go to https://fedidb.org/software/lemmy and pick an instance running 0.18.0. Perform the above commands, replacing the URL for Lemmy.ml with that particular instance’s address.
If this continues, my instance may need to defederate from Lemmy.ml. This is especially problematic because Lemmy.ml continues to federate information outbound to other kbin instances while refusing to allow inbound communication from them.
Spoofing the user agent is less than ideal, and doesn’t respect Lemmy.ml’s potential wish to not be contacted by /kbin instances. I don’t post this to create division between communities, but I do hope that I can draw awareness to what’s going on here. Defederating /kbin instances entirely would even be better than arbitrarily denying access one-way. This said, we should all attempt to maintain a good-faith interpretation until otherwise indicated by the Lemmy developers. It’s possibel that this is a firewall misconfiguration or some other webserver-related bug.
Relevant comment from me (#354 - [BUG] Critical errors/failed messages during messenger:consume)
Edits:
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Yes, people have already tried reaching out to the Lemmy instance admins in their Matrix room with no answer.
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Someone has posed a question on Lemmy.ml about the block here: https://lemmy.ml/post/1563840
I am happy to see nothing from the tankies.
So block the instances you want to block
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On kbin (which you are) you can go to /d/theinstanceyoudontlike and there’s a block button, just like every user page and magazine page.
Go to the relevant domain’s front page (e.g https://kbin.social/d/kbin.social for kbin.social).
The URL scheme is “https://kbin.social/d/DOMAINHERE” assuming you are currently on kbin.social.
On the right in the sidebar you can see “Domain” and below that options to subscribe or to block.
Really it’s the same thing as magazines, just that you generally don’t visit the domain itself.deleted by creator
kbin is still in its growing pains phase. there are tons of little user experience items that need to be worked on. good thing is that @ernest is working hard on it.
Yeah no shade intended, just more reason to explain it to people. Ernest is a G.
Now I’m curious what would happen if I defederated from Kbin.social on kbin.social
Guess you’ll simply no longer see posts from kbin.social
Could you see anything…? All kbin.social items being blocked, not just the content?
I’m genuinely not sure, but since ernest shows up as mod on all external magazines, I wouldn’t be surprised if it blocked everything.
In fact, If you go to https://kbin.social/d/kbin.social today, you do see the external posts.
Blocking isn’t defederating. The instance controls federation, but blocking is on a user basis.
Does that actually work for you? I’m still seeing posts from magazines on domains that I blocked that way. It looks to me like it only blocks articles, and also link posts to the domain, but not link posts on magazines from the domain.
What I hear is that a copy is still made so the posts made before defederalization is available and basically forks without them connected now at the point of being deferated
It was all in my face for all this time!!!
I hate tankies myself as well, but I also hate that some communities are only created on lemmy.ml. Plus some official subreddits moved over there as well (and no - no far-left ones).
yeah I can’t believe the Firefox community is on lemmy.ml
Hate tankies as much as you want, but at least they don’t deny that USSR was the real communism.
Ask Lenin what it was and he’d say state capitalism. Because that’s what he called it.
I don’t know wtf “real communism” is, all I know is that the communism I advocate for is not that of Lenin, Stalin, or Mao
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Problem is that there’s a bunch of major communities on that instance. They have no affiliation with the server admins and mostly just chose the instance because it seemed like the default very early in the migration to the Fediverse.
What is a tanky?
The term “tankie” is a slang term used to describe a person who supports or apologizes for the actions of authoritarian communist regimes, particularly those that have used tanks or military force to suppress opposition or maintain control. The term originated from the Soviet Union’s use of tanks to quell protests and uprisings, most notably the 1956 Hungarian Revolution and the 1968 Prague Spring in Czechoslovakia.
While there may be varying interpretations and uses of the term, it is generally used pejoratively to criticize individuals who defend or downplay the human rights abuses, political repression, or atrocities committed by these regimes.
(ChatGPT)
Ah ok thank you
This is utterly baffling and goes against the whole idea of the Fediverse. To take advantage of the impending mass migration, just days before Reddit shuts down their universal API access for good, this all leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
So users now have to choose between two already-smaller communities when making the transition? This is only going to make a semi-complicated process even more confusing, and end up pushing users back to Reddit.
I had mostly used Lemmy.ml up to this point, but I didn’t leave Reddit to join another u/spez dictatorship. What a disappointing turn of events. Kbin is now my primary.
goes against the whole idea of the Fediverse.
Presuming for the sake of argument that it’s a deliberate move by .ml to freeze out kbin users, it only really goes against the idea of the fediverse in that it’s an underhanded way to accomplish something that was meant to be done openly. By design, every instance is entirely free to choose whether or not to federate with any other.
What a disappointing turn of events. Kbin is now my primary.
And (again presuming for the sake of argument that it’s not simply a glitch), that’s the fediverse working exactly as intended. Just as every instance is free to choose which instances to federate with, every user is free to choose which instances to join or follow.
True, but the original intent was that defederation would be a nuclear option, reserved only for instances that totally failed to moderate stuff like hate speech, bot activity, etc-- given that it damages the Fediverse as a whole.
The lemmy.ml admins are free to federate or defederate from other instances as they please-- and we’re free to criticize their decision as we please, too.
We should not be moderating hate speech…that is a slippery slope. Simply disregard it.
Do you want another /r/the_donald? Because that’s how you get another /r/the_donald.
Something something, that’s how you get a Nazi bar.
Fuck that, I don’t want to give Nazis a safe space to organize and spread their hate.
Depends on where you live, doesn’t it? It could be illegal not to remove hate speech.
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If you would like to be on an instance/community that allows hate speech, then by all means thats your choice. I however want to have a safe space for specific discussion topics and don’t mind those communities being moderated. maybe thats not the experience you would like to have online but for me I think moderation is nessesary (in general). Defederation Is just the nuclear option for moderation, meant for extreme cases where an entire instance is causing issues for another instance, there should always be tools on the community mod and user levels to address the issue first, but some of those tools don’t exist right now. The whole idea of safe spaces for discussion conflicts with the freedom to do hate speech and thats just human nature.
On top of that being literally illegal in most populous jurisdictions, communities cannot tolerate those who are intolerant. Leave.
Decentralisation means a clash of egos
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The admins of lemmy.ml are literal commie scum. No surprise that they are a tad authoritarian.
They’re Tankies. Don’t confuse Tankies and communists, even if there’s a certain historical adjacency there. They are ultimately different concepts.
No need to get on the high horse just yet. This is much more likely to be a sever/sync issue than some kind of shadowy conspiracy.
If lemmy.ml wanted to defederate, they’d just go ahead and do it.
I’m not sure how much you know about networking or HTTP, but from the evidence posted, this very much is not the kind of thing that just accidentally happens.
Yeah this isn’t great to hear. If they’re keen on taking pushing content outwards to kbin but not accepting incoming content, that’s not really good enough.
If they’re doing something shifty like that, how do we even know kbin users comments are even being recorded (and seen on that Lemmy instance)
What’s the overarching issue here? Those admins are just being dicks?
I think they’re scared by the growth of kbin haha
No but for real, Federation is about being open in my opinion. We have modlogs, everything. Then please provide information about why you exclude x from doing y.
Kbin seems alot better so far than Lemmy. First time I"m hearing about it but so far it’s a better experience
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What’s a modlog?
If you check the sidebar of a magazine, you will see a link to a log of all moderator actions such as deletions and what not.
Well that’s a bit fucked. I figured that maybe they’d just tried to block bots, but no, “testBot” goes through just fine. They specifically seem to be rejecting “kbinbot”, though, not just anything with “kbin” in it.
Isn’t that the instance where an admin is afiliated with the CCP?
I’m not surprised at all
The very same.
Wait, I knew the admins were CCP sympathizers, but does one actually have ties to the CCP?
@cockatoo010 @barista Do you have a source for this? /srs
Lemmy.ml is a hive of authoritarians. I’ll be glad to not have to see their oppressive fascist fantasies here.
From what I hear, they’re authoritarian communist, not fascist. Fascism is not just a synonym for authoritarianism, it’s a specific economically far right authoritarian political position.
Same end result; oppression of the masses, rejection of human rights and personal liberties, concentration of power and corruption. Fascist, authoritarian communist, tomato, tomAto, as far as I’m concerned. Their ideologies all stand directly on the throat of freedom and I want nothing to do with anyone who believes total control of the people is a positive thing.
The distinction between a square and a rectangle is important, even if you don’t like right angles and parallel sides. Fascism is a flavor of authoritarianism which is uniquely worse and focused on genocide.
Fascism is not focused on Genocide. Even for Nazism, Genocide is only a (welcomed) byproduct.
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So do communist governments (e.g. Holodomor, Uyghurs in China). So do capitalist governments (e.g. Native Americans, Irish). Genocide is not unique to fascism, unfortunately.
Not unique, but uniquely central. Fascism cannot exist without a persecuted outgroup. In other contexts, genocide is generally a state consolidating power or resources, but not the focus of these state projects.
There is no fascism without genocide. It’s an idealogical ponzi scheme which promises to an ingroup if they destroy outgroup(s).
Other forms of authoritarianism simply demand obedience, and optionally or incidentally incorporate genocidal policy to that end. But genocide is to fascism as driving is to a car, the reason for all off is components. Not a byproduct to some imagined other purpose
Prove it.
fascism făsh′ĭz″əm noun A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
There is your proof. It’s in the definition of the term with suppression and racism.
If you don’t want to do your own research and information gathering that’s fine, but I suggest doing so in the future. Knowing exact terms and their meanings in a political conversation is incredibly important.
The distinction between a square and a rectangle is important
Square is a rectangle though…
Yes, and fascism is authoritarian.
You can dislike both (I do too) but they are not the same, and with the far right on the rise and making power grabs the world over right now we need that distinction
Well, this is disappointing.
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Lemmy seems worse and worse all the time. A completely unannounced bootleg defederation… for what appears to be absolutely no reason? Are the instance admins insane?
My cynical thought is that they’re not insane, they’re trying to kneecap the competition before it gets popular enough to pose a threat to them.
To what end though? This is one lemmy instance, and probably the one fediverse instance facing the highest influx of traffic.
I’m appalled that everyone in the comments is already jumping to conclusions without waiting for a statement by the lemmy.ml admins.
Yes, I know what’s up with the Lemmy devs, but that doesn’t imply anything here.
Completely agree. Everyone’s assuming foul play, but it’s not even clear this is intentional. Could be a side-effect of trying to ban a bot, a misconfiguration of a blocklist, some weirder error.
Well, it’s been more than a hot minute. How long are folks supposed to wait? There’s ultimately only two feasible scenarios here, given the details we have at hand.
Has anyone actually reached out to the lemmy.ml admins?
As per OP’s edits, yes.
Seriously. So much tutting and moralizing when nothing has actually been confirmed yet.
Uhh, I have a question for you since we’re another both users from lemmy.world
Can you open the post in a private tab and check if our comments in this post are visible from kbin?
They’re very visible!
yeah, I’ve been getting hammered in my transport queue from this. I guess if this is intentional it is worth just defederating to avoid spamming the queue and logs.
Man, I just realized how much I love kbin. I was on Lemmy arguing with people against defederation and something just felt off about it. It was like that rabid leftist part of Reddit that refused to see outside of their bubble. Kbin has a really moderate atmosphere and I’m happy to be here. I feel like people are allowed to have proper discourse here.
The two have roughly equal daily users, right? I have an account on both but kbin seems like it has generally less app development. Are there kbin apps I don’t know about yet?
Could it be a problem due to the newest Lemmy software upgrade?
For what I read it’s a complete mess.
It denies access from non-en-us browsers, for example.
It wouldn’t surprise me if it messed with federation too.
But, they’re the devs. They did this mess. Why would they present a software upgrade that clearly had a lot of issues is beyond me…
