Can we be like… trans-positive without blatantly hating on cis-people? Like… that’s the exact kind of humour you don’t want about the trans community… why spread it yourself then?
It very specifically targeted cis men with fragile masculinity, not cis men generally.
Trans people also make jokes about being trans all the time, the difference is they’re actually funny and the punchline isn’t that someone is trans. The punchline here isn’t that the dude is cis.
Edit: Jesus, I didn’t even notice this was in the transmemes community. How fragile can you be??
Yet, being cis is part of the joke, right? You could have just as easily included trans men with overly masculine behaviour into this without changing the punchline So why are the men laughed at cis in particular? What you say is akin to “Yeah, but the joke isn’t racist, I didn’t joke about all the blacks! Just about the insecure blacks! That’s not racist!”
The way I interpret the message of this meme is that being a trans man against all odds is way more impressive and cooler than any toxic masculinity ever will be. I don’t see why this would be a joke against cis people. I see the “cis male” here only as an insert to hammer home the “white MAGA alpha male” stereotype. Maybe the meme could have been phrased better in order to keep the term “cis male” out. But then again it’s just a meme…
If you think this is going to fly on blahaj you’re gonna have a bad time. Criticizing a dominant group through a joke isn’t remotely like making bigoted jokes about minorities, and “if things were different they’d be different” is just asinine.
I don’t care if something “flies” or not. I don’t want to win an argument or anything. I’m just adding something to think about. Everyone reading this can reach their own conclusion if, were the sides reversed here, they’d be comfortable about the joke. If not… well, I’m a staunch believer in “Don’t do unto others what you don’t want done unto you.”
Everyone reading this can reach their own conclusion
The argument tactic you’re using is called Concern Trolling. I imagine you’re a swell person but you listen to a pundit or youtuber who makes arguments like these. Injecting a bit of uncertainty or skepticism, as a wedge, to get people to begin moving their political views to the right.
Oh, no hint of “concern trolling”. Nothing of the sort. I didn’t voice any concern, I didn’t “inject a bit of uncertainty”. I said out loud what I dislike about the meme. I directly voiced criticism while not attempting to sound like my point of view is the only correct one there is. No “concern” about the trans community whatsoever. Quite the opposite. I just don’t like when whatever group of people does the same things they (rightfully) don’t want to happen to them to others. That’s all.
The whole “but what about the children”-tactic employed by right-wing buffoons is sadly commonplace, as are stupid “influencers” who spread dumb talking points, but believe me: The only thing related to the trans community I’m concerned about is the rise of weirdos who think just because they can’t understand LGBTQ-issues they have the freedom to judge for some reason.
And I get why that would be a valid thing to do. I dislike it personally, but that doesn’t mean my oppinion has or should have any weight. I merely voiced it. There is no need to convince me or anything, I’m not here to seek confrontation, just followed my urge to blow my voice into the ether ;)
That being said, I didn’t immediately connect the red cap to the MAGA movement. I could have, but I’m not from the U.S. so this connection might not be as hard-wired as it is for many other people. Since it’s some sort of formula1-cap that you see here in Germany just as that: A formula1-cap, so that connection was lost on me at first.
Again, “if things were different they’d be different” is still an asinine argument.
Is being talked over by someone without any personal experience in what it’s like to be on the receiving end of a trans joke how you would want to be treated if you were trans?
Things do not happen in a vacuum. A trans person making a joke about a cis person, even a bigoted one, isn’t the same as a cis person making a joke about a trans person. A cis person doesn’t have to worry about being listened to or believed if they talk about how uncomfortable a trans person made them, and in fact there are entire news cycles dedicated to this against trans people for existing in public. They have contributed to hate crimes and murders of trans people.
When jokes about cis men with fragile masculinity have that context I will prioritize the feelings of people who think it’s unfair trans people get to make jokes about cis men.
I don’t want this to turn into a discussion if and how far “punching up” has to be supported or not, so perhaps this might give you some perspective about how I think, since you went into attack mode. I get that you might have perceived me as confrontational, yet I’m not. I may have different views on some things, but that doesn’t make me your opponent.
And for the record: “Flipping the script” as @Franzia called it is the only case where I see value in “punching up, not down”, even if I dislike any “us vs them” punching in general.
I am frustrated as a trans person because you came into a trans space, on a trans run server, to complain about how a meme wasn’t nice enough in a jokey criticism of cis men’s fragile masculinity. It shows you have an ignorance of what it is like to be trans right now in the current political climate, both in the US and Europe, and you are not listening to trans people trying to explain to you why this is not the same as a racist joke.
Trying to remove all context and dissect it and weigh it like a specimen to be analyzed is not a virtue. It doesn’t make you smarter or more fair, it just makes you blind to the actual people and communities this meme is aimed at.
I agree, I don’t really think it’s fair to hate on someone for their gender identity. I think we should hate on people and groups for their actions and how they choose to be as people. People acting like Bigots and assholes is a choice they made, being any gender identity, isn’t a choice.
That being said this doesn’t really seem to be targeting cis people specifically, rather it seems to be targeting the people who strongly believe in gender stereotypes and force them on others, sometimes even going as far as to suggest that compliance with them can make or break your gender.
These people should be made fun of and criticized for that behavior and for those opinions because it is toxic and harmful towards others.
This isn’t hating on cis people, it’s calling out those who uphold stupid sexist social norms that actively contribute to our marginalization. The pressure on men to avoid any and all things seen as feminine is very real and very stupid, and it made me miss out on so many great things for many years of my life. I’m still trying to undo the damage it has done to my mind. So excuse me for taking enjoyment from mocking something that has hurt me so much.
You can be cis without being the cis man in the meme. The people who are that man can change.
At first glance I read trans men & cis men and was like wtf. Then I made sure to read it properly because it couldn’t be this bad. It isn’t, but I don’t like it either.
Additionally this meme could have blamed or made fun of social norms, instead of individuals (who are victims in that regard), but I digress.
Can we be like… trans-positive without blatantly hating on cis-people? Like… that’s the exact kind of humour you don’t want about the trans community… why spread it yourself then?
It very specifically targeted cis men with fragile masculinity, not cis men generally.
Trans people also make jokes about being trans all the time, the difference is they’re actually funny and the punchline isn’t that someone is trans. The punchline here isn’t that the dude is cis.
Edit: Jesus, I didn’t even notice this was in the transmemes community. How fragile can you be??
Yet, being cis is part of the joke, right? You could have just as easily included trans men with overly masculine behaviour into this without changing the punchline So why are the men laughed at cis in particular? What you say is akin to “Yeah, but the joke isn’t racist, I didn’t joke about all the blacks! Just about the insecure blacks! That’s not racist!”
The way I interpret the message of this meme is that being a trans man against all odds is way more impressive and cooler than any toxic masculinity ever will be. I don’t see why this would be a joke against cis people. I see the “cis male” here only as an insert to hammer home the “white MAGA alpha male” stereotype. Maybe the meme could have been phrased better in order to keep the term “cis male” out. But then again it’s just a meme…
If you think this is going to fly on blahaj you’re gonna have a bad time. Criticizing a dominant group through a joke isn’t remotely like making bigoted jokes about minorities, and “if things were different they’d be different” is just asinine.
I don’t care if something “flies” or not. I don’t want to win an argument or anything. I’m just adding something to think about. Everyone reading this can reach their own conclusion if, were the sides reversed here, they’d be comfortable about the joke. If not… well, I’m a staunch believer in “Don’t do unto others what you don’t want done unto you.”
The argument tactic you’re using is called Concern Trolling. I imagine you’re a swell person but you listen to a pundit or youtuber who makes arguments like these. Injecting a bit of uncertainty or skepticism, as a wedge, to get people to begin moving their political views to the right.
Oh, no hint of “concern trolling”. Nothing of the sort. I didn’t voice any concern, I didn’t “inject a bit of uncertainty”. I said out loud what I dislike about the meme. I directly voiced criticism while not attempting to sound like my point of view is the only correct one there is. No “concern” about the trans community whatsoever. Quite the opposite. I just don’t like when whatever group of people does the same things they (rightfully) don’t want to happen to them to others. That’s all.
The whole “but what about the children”-tactic employed by right-wing buffoons is sadly commonplace, as are stupid “influencers” who spread dumb talking points, but believe me: The only thing related to the trans community I’m concerned about is the rise of weirdos who think just because they can’t understand LGBTQ-issues they have the freedom to judge for some reason.
The joke is flipping the script on bigots.
And I get why that would be a valid thing to do. I dislike it personally, but that doesn’t mean my oppinion has or should have any weight. I merely voiced it. There is no need to convince me or anything, I’m not here to seek confrontation, just followed my urge to blow my voice into the ether ;)
That being said, I didn’t immediately connect the red cap to the MAGA movement. I could have, but I’m not from the U.S. so this connection might not be as hard-wired as it is for many other people. Since it’s some sort of formula1-cap that you see here in Germany just as that: A formula1-cap, so that connection was lost on me at first.
Again, “if things were different they’d be different” is still an asinine argument.
Is being talked over by someone without any personal experience in what it’s like to be on the receiving end of a trans joke how you would want to be treated if you were trans?
Things do not happen in a vacuum. A trans person making a joke about a cis person, even a bigoted one, isn’t the same as a cis person making a joke about a trans person. A cis person doesn’t have to worry about being listened to or believed if they talk about how uncomfortable a trans person made them, and in fact there are entire news cycles dedicated to this against trans people for existing in public. They have contributed to hate crimes and murders of trans people.
When jokes about cis men with fragile masculinity have that context I will prioritize the feelings of people who think it’s unfair trans people get to make jokes about cis men.
I don’t want this to turn into a discussion if and how far “punching up” has to be supported or not, so perhaps this might give you some perspective about how I think, since you went into attack mode. I get that you might have perceived me as confrontational, yet I’m not. I may have different views on some things, but that doesn’t make me your opponent.
And for the record: “Flipping the script” as @Franzia called it is the only case where I see value in “punching up, not down”, even if I dislike any “us vs them” punching in general.
I am frustrated as a trans person because you came into a trans space, on a trans run server, to complain about how a meme wasn’t nice enough in a jokey criticism of cis men’s fragile masculinity. It shows you have an ignorance of what it is like to be trans right now in the current political climate, both in the US and Europe, and you are not listening to trans people trying to explain to you why this is not the same as a racist joke.
Trying to remove all context and dissect it and weigh it like a specimen to be analyzed is not a virtue. It doesn’t make you smarter or more fair, it just makes you blind to the actual people and communities this meme is aimed at.
Be Italian instead, we’re offended if you don’t say terrible things about us and lean into stereotypes.
Obligatory gabbagool
i love anything with bread, tomato sauce, and cheese, please insult me to add to my ever growing pool of italian hate power i beg of you
Removed by mod
Don’t threaten me with a good time!
I’m a cis man, I didn’t feel targeted at all by this. It’s pretty explicit about who is the butt of the joke.
I agree, I don’t really think it’s fair to hate on someone for their gender identity. I think we should hate on people and groups for their actions and how they choose to be as people. People acting like Bigots and assholes is a choice they made, being any gender identity, isn’t a choice.
That being said this doesn’t really seem to be targeting cis people specifically, rather it seems to be targeting the people who strongly believe in gender stereotypes and force them on others, sometimes even going as far as to suggest that compliance with them can make or break your gender. These people should be made fun of and criticized for that behavior and for those opinions because it is toxic and harmful towards others.
This isn’t hating on cis people, it’s calling out those who uphold stupid sexist social norms that actively contribute to our marginalization. The pressure on men to avoid any and all things seen as feminine is very real and very stupid, and it made me miss out on so many great things for many years of my life. I’m still trying to undo the damage it has done to my mind. So excuse me for taking enjoyment from mocking something that has hurt me so much.
You can be cis without being the cis man in the meme. The people who are that man can change.
At first glance I read trans men & cis men and was like wtf. Then I made sure to read it properly because it couldn’t be this bad. It isn’t, but I don’t like it either.
Additionally this meme could have blamed or made fun of social norms, instead of individuals (who are victims in that regard), but I digress.
Why laugh?
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